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HSE2
29th September 2017, 10:43 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DK2UJimUMAA-HiF.jpg:large

I am going to have to read this a few times.

Its a political football when it comes to aftermarket tuning so lets bottom line it.

Mustang motorsports wins.

Both KPM and Harrop have engines that let go and I have severe issue with why but more on that later

Herrod does well as does Tickford for their time in the game.

WASP
29th September 2017, 12:18 PM
Look forward to reading this.

Road_Warrior
29th September 2017, 12:40 PM
Camaro, again. How many times has this "coulda woulda shoulda" deal with the Camaro been done now?

WASP
29th September 2017, 04:24 PM
Keeps GM Fans buying the mag? Love how its filled with Mustang love however.

WASP
29th September 2017, 05:09 PM
Camaro coming in 2018
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/technology/chevrolet-camaro-is-go-for-australia-in-holden-showrooms-next-year/news-story/2c017ccfeb536056b8e68e752d17bef8

Road_Warrior
29th September 2017, 05:28 PM
Camaro coming in 2018
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/technology/chevrolet-camaro-is-go-for-australia-in-holden-showrooms-next-year/news-story/2c017ccfeb536056b8e68e752d17bef8

This is all I have to say on the matter:


Joshua Dowling, News Corp Australia Network
September 28, 2017 9:00pm

4Vman
29th September 2017, 05:59 PM
Camaro coming in 2018
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/technology/chevrolet-camaro-is-go-for-australia-in-holden-showrooms-next-year/news-story/2c017ccfeb536056b8e68e752d17bef8

Converted by Walkinshaw.

jpd80
29th September 2017, 08:10 PM
Hey, they're entitled to try to give their V8 oriented customer base something,
even if it tens of thousands of dollars more than a Factory RHD Mustang.

I will be curious to see the starting price and how many pre-orders they get,
I suspect the two will be closely linked.

Futura
29th September 2017, 09:19 PM
Resale value will take a nose dive if Holden decides to import a factory RHD version.

HSE2
29th September 2017, 10:08 PM
I think it’s going to make a difference as to which Camaro they go after.

It won’t be the entry level.

The price of supercharged mustangs is 85k - 160k.

If they can effectively convert an already supercharged car and land in that price range, they will be ok.

HSV won’t be competing with GT mustangs. They will be super camaros, just short of 1LE I suspect.

This will be more walkingshaw than HSV.

4Vman
30th September 2017, 08:23 AM
Given they will retain their Chev identity they wouldnt wear HSV branding obviously.

Walkinshaw will effectively be a silent contractor.

The price point will be well above GT Mustang too so the packaging will be very interesting given the 30 od $K the conversion will add.

jpd80
30th September 2017, 11:48 AM
I think it’s going to make a difference as to which Camaro they go after.

It won’t be the entry level.

The price of supercharged mustangs is 85k - 160k.

If they can effectively convert an already supercharged car and land in that price range, they will be ok.

HSV won’t be competing with GT mustangs. They will be super camaros, just short of 1LE I suspect.

This will be more walkingshaw than HSV.
Ian, i want to believe that Holden will basically start importing coupes to replace lost SS, Clubsport
and GTS sales but given the added recitivness of Holden v8 buyers, can GM afford to take the risk
by going for an apex predator with an apex price?

For Gen 6 Camaro, the 1LE is now a Sports Pack model without Supercharger and is available on SS (V8)
and LT (V6) The ZL1 is the S/C 6.2 version and retails for US$63K that's ~AUS $85K as a LHD car so it's
well over $100K converted..

If this was Walkinshaw / HSV, then I'd say they are going after GTS buyers but if this a Holden iniative
and simply consigning Walkinshaw to do the conversions, I suspect it will be the a well appointed atmo
2SS Camaro (US$44K / AUS$65K) and that's before we talk conversion...

I get the point about cost, if you're going to convert a sports coupe, do you make it an intermediate
or go top of the line with S/c and plenty of performance and handling. I wonder how many sales GM
needs to make this viable remembering the steep costs on low volumes and crash testing two vehicles.

I'd sooner be in Ford's position than Holden's..:)

4Vman
30th September 2017, 11:51 AM
Ian, i want to believe that Holden will basically start importing coupes to replace lost SS, Clubsport and GTS sales
but given the added recitivness of Holden v8 buyers, can GM afford to take the risk by going for an Apex car
with an apex price?

For Gen 6 Camaro, the 1LE is now a Sports Pack model without Supercharger and is available on SS (V8) and LT (V6)
The ZL1 is the S/C 6.2 version and retails for US$63K that's ~AUS $85K as a LHD car so well over $100 converted..

If this was Walkinshaw / HSV, then I'd say they are going after GTS buyers but if this a Holden iniative
and simply consigning Walkinshaw to do the conversions, I suspect it will be the 2SS Camaro (US$44K / AUS$65K)
and that's before we talk conversion...

Yep, that's my take.

SS Camaro @ $95K DA and possibly a Supercharged version at circa $130K

WASP
30th September 2017, 08:03 PM
Many buyers are willing to spend upwards of $100 k for blown Mustang. The Camaro option will be a variable alternative to those buyers if they get it right.


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Futura
30th September 2017, 08:32 PM
If I had a choice of buying a RHD or a LHD vehicle converted to a RHD, the factory RHD option will be my first choice.

WASP
30th September 2017, 08:45 PM
The exercise on the day has potently highlighted an issue with oil supply in the coyote engine when doing circuit racing. The sump is not winged or deep which is not ideal when pushing the engine hard on a track. It's not an issue for typical road use.

All cars represented, apart from two faired reasonably well but all seemed to have compromised the original intent of the car in one way of another. Basically each workshop had made their Mustang a much more focused vehicle where it did few one or a few things much better than the standard car, but at the expense of something else.

Sometimes the better the base vehicle, the harder it is improve on the overall package.

For me standout cars where the Tickford 360 and Mustang Motorsports effort. For me they seemed more complete and sorted as a package offering and I could see myself owning one as a daily.

The Herrod Mustang best represented what I imagine you would get if you sat there with your Ford dealer and optioned up your Mustang from the Ford Performance catalogue. I've noticed that some Ford Dealers are taking it upon themselves to do the same thing in-house. I'm unaware if there is any bespoke engineering on the Herrod car ( Compliance Pack) so I may be wrong here. I suspect there is a perceived benefit to having an experienced tuning house install these enhancement as apposed to your local dealer mechanics.

For me, personally I like knowing that the people looking after the car during its warranty life are the same people that modified it in the first place. I don't want to get caught in the middle if something should go pear shaped.

jpd80
1st October 2017, 11:08 AM
Just curious, how many of the 13,000 Mustangs sold in Australia since Jan 2016 have been fitted
with Superchargers?

Are people looking for a Factory fit S/C engine like the ZL1 Camaro and would they be willing to pay
around $120K for it?

Is a S/C Coyote preferable to something like say, the high revving GT350?

Futura
1st October 2017, 04:36 PM
Just curious, how many of the 13,000 Mustangs sold in Australia since Jan 2016 have been fitted
with Superchargers?

Are people looking for a Factory fit S/C engine like the ZL1 Camaro and would they be willing to pay
around $120K for it?

Is a S/C Coyote preferable to something like say, the high revving GT350?

Good question.

WASP
1st October 2017, 05:03 PM
I don't have those answers but what I can tell you is if the GT350 made it out here in right hand drive I would be buying one. I would also seriously look at a factory blown effort to but I would ideally like to see a twin turbo V8 on that front.


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WASP
1st October 2017, 05:07 PM
My dealer said to me that almost every mustang sold the owners wanted to customize it in one form or another. So much so that they had to change their policies on modifying cars and embrace the notion of offering dealer backed, adr compliance packages to keep buyer engaged. This was not their position with Falcon.


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4Vman
1st October 2017, 06:31 PM
My dealer said to me that almost every mustang sold the owners wanted to customize it in one form or another. So much so that they had to change their policies on modifying cars and embrace the notion of offering dealer backed, adr compliance packages to keep buyer engaged. This was not their position with Falcon.


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The irony in that is it probably means a factory performance Stang is less likely to happen.

Especially if it wouldnt result in any incremental sales.

Road_Warrior
1st October 2017, 09:37 PM
On another note, I heard an Ecoboost Mustang today with a sports exhaust system.

Words cannot describe how shit it sounded.

HSE2
2nd October 2017, 07:18 AM
Ian, i want to believe that Holden will basically start importing coupes to replace lost SS, Clubsport
and GTS sales but given the added recitivness of Holden v8 buyers, can GM afford to take the risk
by going for an apex predator with an apex price?

For Gen 6 Camaro, the 1LE is now a Sports Pack model without Supercharger and is available on SS (V8)
and LT (V6) The ZL1 is the S/C 6.2 version and retails for US$63K that's ~AUS $85K as a LHD car so it's
well over $100K converted..

If this was Walkinshaw / HSV, then I'd say they are going after GTS buyers but if this a Holden iniative
and simply consigning Walkinshaw to do the conversions, I suspect it will be the a well appointed atmo
2SS Camaro (US$44K / AUS$65K) and that's before we talk conversion...

I get the point about cost, if you're going to convert a sports coupe, do you make it an intermediate
or go top of the line with S/c and plenty of performance and handling. I wonder how many sales GM
needs to make this viable remembering the steep costs on low volumes and crash testing two vehicles.

I'd sooner be in Ford's position than Holden's..:)

For the reasons you have stated, it wonít happen.

Forget aiming at an entry level price point. Itís not possible until a factory option is available and that is coming.

Walkingshaw is only doing high end models. Technically camaro will be available but itís GTS money not SS. Itís a high spec car, all supercharged is the word out of Clayton.

HSE2
2nd October 2017, 07:55 AM
The two biggest issues I have come from the failures and reactions.

KPM suffered a cooler failure which resulted in engine done and Harrop basically seized an engine and blamed the stock oil pan.

Harrop also have issues with their tune.

The response on the engine failure was suspected the stock pan design wasnt up to track work, yet no other car had this failure driven the same way. I will be interested if any other option addressed the sump in any form because it smacks a little of learning on the run which brings me to the statement on the tune.

Sitting aside this article, word previously filtering through is the Harrop tune is basically shit.

Fast forward to this review and motor have found the same drivablity issues.

The fix is relying on customer feedback, and that’s something I have a big issue with.

Testing on the run, not having your own brand identity or confidence to say this is the package, reveals a lack of depth to me.

It’s a simple enough fix. I am not sure why some of these guys aren’t using ford engineers as consultants, either off the book or on it.

That’s what I would do because otherwise you are left with a really narrow opinion field on which to base your product.

It’s only times like this review where you get a more balanced appraisal from the industry via the press and that’s a bit late.

On that point, Tickford might be justified in being a bit confused as DM’s feedback differed slightly from Sn’s previous thoughts.

My take is they are both right.

The Tickford 360 suffered in comparison due to it being a softer focus, street drive car.

The good part about this is, and if you have read the dedicated Tickford article you will know, it’s all about not putting the car in a position that’s going to be an issue for owners.

That means conservative and also expensive, because the proving ground isn’t cheep.

Motor didn’t really cover compliance other than to say it’s buyer beware. They are all doing something different with Herrod recently promoting his compliance plate as a manufacturer - enhanced product.

Passing adr and pushing further are two separate things that people need to understand.

One is a legal requirement, one is a durability issue.

Don’t get fooled into thinking otherwise.

On the street the Tickford suspension was thought to be better suited to the track and yet on the track it wasn’t race focused enough compared to the opposition.

Having driven the 360 briefly, it was too short of an experience to really tell, but the difference I think will come down to the fact the most common fix is more spring and that will account for initial compliance you feel everyday. As it’s a compromise it comes down to personal taste so what I like or accept might be different and personally I think we are seeing that with this car.

The claim is mustang is very sensitive to small changes.

I was impressed with luffs comments on this test.

I was impressed Tickford did so well given the newness to this game.

I wasn’t impressed by the words out of Harrops mouth. Not what I am looking for as a customer despite a strong preference for their equipment. I believe hardware wise it’s technically superior to even that offered under Ford Performance.

That Mustang Motorsport won, isn’t really a surprise. The guys involved with mustang the longest, winning. A real shocker, not.

A very good performance is Herrod. For the same T360 money you can get a supercharged herrod Ford Performance package both being 85k.

For me, this is the money shot.

At 112k for the winner, it’s a difference one would need to appreciate.

4Vman
2nd October 2017, 03:28 PM
From Motor:


Leading HSV dealers have confided to MOTOR the model to be offered will be a locally adapted version of the mid-range Camaro 2SS to keep the recommended retail price (before on-roads) under $90,000.
In fact, some sources have indicated that HSV is aiming for an RRP closer to $80K for what is expected to be a one-model offering. While at least a third more expensive than the most popular Mustang GT, in 2SS guise it would be almost half the cost of top-spec previous-gen Zeta-based private import conversions.

2SS:

6.2L LT1 V8 ENGINE
The star of the Chevrolet performance lineup, the 6.2L LT1 V8 with the capability of 455 horsepower and 455 lb.-ft. of torque, will accelerate the 8-speed automatic Camaro SS from 0 to 60 in 4.0 seconds flat. With Direct Injection, Variable Valve Timing and, on the 8-speed automatic, Active Fuel ManagementTM, it offers efficiency when you want it, power when you need it.

HSE2
2nd October 2017, 03:30 PM
Now motor mag are talking about the camaro conversion.

I believe their information is about right.

I was told GTS level money which today stretches to 115k. Motor are reporting under 90 thanks to the removal of low input restrictions and GM assistance. Also saying based on the 2SS which is more mid spec.

Either way it leaves Ford with a free kick in the entry level but creates competition in the aftermarket enhancement side will providing what appears to be genuine Factory backing.

Interesting and good for our market. We need competition

jpd80
2nd October 2017, 04:08 PM
Interesting move if true, especially given the upgraded specs of the '18 Mustang (when it finally arrives here)
The 2SS is a nice mix of Equipment and trim, approximates '16 Mustang GT Premium with track pack
but also has Magnetic Ride Suspension ... something the '18 Mustang is getting.

4Vman
2nd October 2017, 04:24 PM
$90K before onroads is still a $100K DA

A lot of money when you can get equivalent levels of appointment and performance from GT Mustang for $68K DA (Est MY18 pricing for a GT Coupe).

Which ever way you look at it $30K conversion costs bite you.

The second issue will be when Holden bring it in as a full time RHD model and your car drops 30k in value over night too.

An important consideration for early adopters...

jpd80
2nd October 2017, 04:54 PM
This will test allegiances, pay ~$20K more for a Camaro or switch camps and buy the Mustang..

4Vman
2nd October 2017, 05:08 PM
This will test allegiances, pay ~$20K more for a Camaro or switch camps and buy the Mustang..

Even more-so seeing people see Mustang as a brand of its own and not necessarily a Ford.

So the leap isnt as hard to take.

flappist
2nd October 2017, 06:14 PM
In recent years the tribalism is mostly Falcon/Commodore rather than Ford/Holden so with the demise of the former for many there will not the previous prejudice in buying determination.

HSE2
2nd October 2017, 08:10 PM
In recent years the tribalism is mostly Falcon/Commodore rather than Ford/Holden so with the demise of the former for many there will not the previous prejudice in buying determination.

And to this its never good for one brand to have market monopoly.

On road aim is less than 90k.

The current generation Camaro is said to be a better car, one of the reasons allegedly Ford is bring forward S650.

On top of all that with competition in the market, once Camaro becomes factory rhd compliant, look to the delay in getting here to be improved. None of this waiting a year to be current BS.

You can see us heading towards a Camaro v Mustang culture just as the case is in the states.

Lets see Ford stay out of motorsport then.

Word is walkingshaw want to race Camaro and are watching carefully what goes on with Mustang. If that proves too hard then it will make traditional tribalism much harder.

WASP
3rd October 2017, 05:36 PM
I can see the future in Supercars now. All the non factory-backed teams running Mustangs and Camaro's leaving only Triple 8 the factory Holden team running the only Opel. Nissan is long gone.

What's that saying? The more things change....

4Vman
3rd October 2017, 05:55 PM
I can see the future in Supercars now. All the non factory-backed teams running Mustangs and Camaro's leaving only Triple 8 the factory Holden team running the only Peugeot. Nissan is long gone.

What's that saying? The more things change....
Fixed for you!!

jpd80
3rd October 2017, 06:21 PM
Even more-so seeing people see Mustang as a brand of its own and not necessarily a Ford.

So the leap isnt as hard to take.

Yep, not a Ford badge in sight on Mustangs and it's been that way for years for a very good reason.
Broader appeal because of the name, not the brand....how refreshing to break through old tribalism.

In a funny way, perhaps the Camaro can do the same for team red.

jpd80
8th October 2017, 10:02 AM
September sales of Mustang...659