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4Vman
21st January 2012, 03:32 PM
What are peoples thoughts on its survival? Dead? or dormant? I think its gone, GS has taken its place but you just never know!

fpv302boss
21st January 2012, 09:29 PM
i think the price of the 315 vehicle has dictated which badge had to be used. in other words if people were to pay that premium brought about by this motor then they may as well call it an FPV. this is why i don't agree that GS has taken XR8's place because the XR8 should be 10k cheaper than "57k".

there's definitely a place for a sub 50k v8, but i can understand that ford's priorities means that won't happen, not in the short term. if ecoboost and lpi show great increase in sales then maybe, just maybe, ford will revisit the idea.

4Vman
21st January 2012, 09:43 PM
i think the price of the 315 vehicle has dictated which badge had to be used. in other words if people were to pay that premium brought about by this motor then they may as well call it an FPV. this is why i don't agree that GS has taken XR8's place because the XR8 should be 10k cheaper than "57k".

there's definitely a place for a sub 50k v8, but i can understand that ford's priorities means that won't happen, not in the short term. if ecoboost and lpi show great increase in sales then maybe, just maybe, ford will revisit the idea.Agree with you on that, The price point of GS deserves an image premium, as you say XR8 will only return when Falcon sales exceed a magic number that none of us know....

TICK4D-TAS
21st January 2012, 10:30 PM
I guess the question is, do you think we need the XR8? I know traditionally we have always had one in the modern XR range, but I wonder how it will affect the FPV GS sales if it does come back?
99% of the guys that I read that complain that there is no XR8 have no intention of buying one, let alone buying a new model one. And the guys that are serious to buy a V8 have stepped up into a GS. I know personally, I would like to see Ford and the Falcon, along with FPV and their line up become stable and future proof, rather than bringing back a model which will just take sales away from other models and possibly put more financial strain on Ford and FPV.

flappist
21st January 2012, 10:31 PM
I believe one of the problems with using the coyote engine in the XR8 is that there is no real difference between it and the GT so they would be undermining all of the previous FPV buyers by selling a vehicle with significantly higher performance directly against their existing customers.

FPV have been very smart with their product placement. As opposed to HSV they have not let down their customers by making a new model every 18 months that was a significant performance increase devaluing any existing owners investments.

No XR has ever exceeded the performance specs of any FPV. There are a lot of Clubsports getting around in the shadow of a 2 or 3 year newer SS.

By making the XR8 an FPV GS they have solve the whole placement problem as FPV is in all cases above Falcon XR.

XR8 has been dying slowly for several years. It has not been the premium Falcon since BA and only sold small numbers due to price. Even then it was overshadowed by XR6T.
There are still a few hard core XR8 buyers but they are almost all price focussed and tend to buy second hand rather than new.

The day of the XR8 is over, the GT and GS are now the standard performance V8s.

4Vman
21st January 2012, 10:42 PM
I guess the question is, do you think we need the XR8? I know traditionally we have always had one in the modern XR range, but I wonder how it will affect the FPV GS sales if it does come back?
99% of the guys that I read that complain that there is no XR8 have no intention of buying one, let alone buying a new model one. And the guys that are serious to buy a V8 have stepped up into a GS. I know personally, I would like to see Ford and the Falcon, along with FPV and their line up become stable and future proof, rather than bringing back a model which will just take sales away from other models and possibly put more financial strain on Ford and FPV.
Which is the crux of it, lots of wind and noise from people with no means or intention of buying the product. GS isnt that bigger step, hell i paid $50K for a loaded 220kw AU2 XR8 in 2001. GS's are going for low 50's. I think we easliy forget how much more affordable performance Falcons are now compared to 10 years ago...

HSE2
22nd January 2012, 04:08 AM
I think one issue Ford is seeing this time around is the dropping of the V8 hasn't really invoked the hysteria of the 80s. That could mean two things. No one really cares what Ford do or the market has grown up to the global direction reality.

The balance isn't right for GS to challenge SS. Ford need to keep in mind that the next new SS is very likely to be a volume model again.

My problem with all this is when I read the commentary from supposed XR8 or GS buyers there isn't alot of understanding and expectations are not very realistic. That assumes forums are accurate in such depiction.

It's a weird situation with the brute's. A ford engine being raced in an XR8 you can't buy.
I would have thought the time was right for a smart V8 in a Falcon.

EATHSV
23rd January 2012, 02:00 AM
I think the GS and XR6t have filled the gap left by the XR8 and are probably selling more than if the XR was still there.

I'd just buy one from FPV (if I had the coin would do tomorrow) and replace the badges with FG1 XR8 and delete the decals. Problem solved. The GS badge was before my time so its just letters, XR8 is what I grew up with.

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 06:18 AM
My problem with all this is when I read the commentary from supposed XR8 or GS buyers there isn't allot of understanding and expectations are not very realistic. That assumes forums are accurate in such depiction.

I'm far from convinced that most of the people making the negative commentary are really potential consumers anyway... Or at-least consumers of new vehicles..

Look at the buying habits or current product ownership of these people, i've no doubt there are also allot of genuine consumers that are unhappy too, some of these might be waiting, its just hard at times to differentiate between genuine feedback and noise for the sake of noise.

HSE2
23rd January 2012, 06:54 AM
We have been reading plenty about the constant pressure Ford is receiving regarding Falcon's future from passionate people emailing detroit right through the the local XR8. Ford would not be commenting without this noise, so how would you go about separating the white from the real?

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 07:00 AM
We have been reading plenty about the constant pressure Ford is receiving regarding Falcon's future from passionate people emailing detroit right through the the local XR8. Ford would not be commenting without this noise, so how would you go about separating the white from the real?
Its very difficult to, however... go back through your historic sales, BA/F XR8 buyers and talk to the people who have bought the product, ask them what theyre driving now.. white noise is still good, but it needs to be kept in perspective.

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 07:20 AM
The other thing about white noise is weather you consider people feeling only good about the product/brand but never buying it is important too... (brand image) or are you only only interested in hitting the target with people who are genuine buyers? my guess would be both, a little of the first, and allot of the last..

Falc'man
23rd January 2012, 01:02 PM
Ian, I think people haven't complained as much about the "dropping of the V8" because the V8 is still there with FPV. Imagine the uproar if that happened.

As for XR8, it really needs to be sub $50, and even then will it compete with the Holden SS's low pricing? We're talking low $40s! Another thing to remember is Holden play the low profit game and saturate the market, plus, their V8s are cheaper to source than their V6s, believe it or not. The XR8, with an atmo 5.0, would be on the back foot right away with the higher price, then try to challenge mass' perception that a 300+kW atmo 5.0 can't match an inferior 270kW 6.0, as well as having better torque.

It is why they never made it. It was meant to have the Boss 5.0 (315) but that became the GS, probably for the reason mentioned above (price), and making an atmo means more engineering (money) is involved. They're better off using the blown motor and SAVE money with less goodies, such as the exotic cats, bi-modal exhaust, use the standard XR6T's intake, etc. Also means FPV get more return for their $40m.

HSE2
23rd January 2012, 01:58 PM
I agree Youssef but....

There is no Falcon badge Ford with a V8. The Falcons running around with a V8 are using what is considered to be Prodrives property. It's a thin distinction I know but on a technicality Ford have removed themselves of a V8 option again. It's been a matter of convenience that has allowed them to slip through to the keeper and the media have gone easy on them.
Let me in a press room and watch the reaction.

I completely agree that supporting the Prodrive option should be high on the list. It's an initiative that deserves unreserved support, but in this political correct world we live in the two sides aren't completely aligned as they should be.

I am going to be very interested to read what the Brutes do to the 5.0 to maintain parity with the 6.0.

fpv302boss
23rd January 2012, 03:11 PM
I think a rev limit will be sufficient. Where the 6.0 stops breathing, just over 5500rpm, the 5.0 keeps punching hard all the way up to 7000rpm. do you know how many cars will have it this year?

personally, I'm against not having the Falcon badge sitting next to those two famous letters in the first place. model differentiation and exclusivity has dictated something else.
in the same way, some will tell us, that the V8 motor has become exclusive to FPV, and Ford's looking after the rest.

HSE2
23rd January 2012, 03:54 PM
Norm can probably remember my early contributions to such conversations. As a keen industry observer I have always tended to point out when the "t"s haven't been crossed and the 'I"s dotted.
The entire purpose and focus of moving away from Tickford was to place greater emphasis on Ford. Tickford was a confused brand according to the research and FPV, with the emphasis on Ford, was the salvation. It was designed that the intention was to focus on the big blue badge on the front of the car.
As a premium brand and as time progressed the direction changed and I think it's fair to say that this change creates complexities where the interests of the two parties aren't always aligned.
There are two sides here both of equal merit. There was precedence for the GS to be badged XR8.
It was put to David Flint that the XR8 should have retained some FPV signature in respect to the companies role with the 260 engine, and the fact that XR8s had been branded Tickford cars previously. The XR brand is so because it's a tribute to the XR GT so the linage and history is linked to the top of Fords performance tree.
The decisions was made to accept more of the HSV operation manual and go head to head with the market leader. It's at this point that line in the sand was drawn.
The natural progress of this business model is on points of separation. HSV at one point went to great lengths to actually number the points of difference over the donor car, so it follows that FPV won't be far behind. At the heart, it's what consumers want.
The Ford in Ford performance Vehicle becomes the elephant in the room, the given that needs no longer to be spoken of with emphasis on the company behind the brand more desirable.
The down side is that it robs of flexibility in the political world. Over the years I have had to accept that it's pointless to argue the infinite detail of what should or shouldn't happen to make the planets align. No one really cares.
From a personal stand point I am the biggest fan of N/A engine consistency, but it's a dying breed. One simple can't continue to ignore the direction being set.
We are now reading that the Mustang RWD platform is a protected species and will live on in some form that is respectful to its linage. How that translates as a global product remains to be seen as outside of the US the Mustang can be as polarising as an AU falcon is in this country. It has baggage and perception issues that need to be address with stewardship from a company that is not strong in these areas but long term it looks set to be an option in this country. I have no idea if the affordability stakes will be covered, but it will be surely badged with the blue oval and not the black one that is the FPV way . Does that cover affordable Blue oval V8 I don't know but the questions on the future of the XR brand and that of the GT brand should be able to coexist.
I simply don't know enough to be able to say how competitive an imported Coyote would be in the Falcon. It would need to have all its faculties turned on and in the current climate I can't see how that could be remotely possible economically.
Ford is in the position it is by virtue of sound business decisions where sentiment plays less of a leading hand.
Considering the investment in the V8 we have I would think it to be critical for both parties to join up and explore ways of making the XR8 work just as the supply arrangement has worked in the past.
That may well mean that the XR8 has to wait for the GS and the GT to move up a bit, to create some space leaving the XR8 with the current GS spec trim. Enough time has elapsed to recoup investment in a premium product before being handed down would be the consideration of merit.
The statement becomes that this engine is a point of separation, has effectively become the FPV DNA statement that leads it into the future. In T and I department protocol says its a move that can hurt the premium brand. No one is listen to that thought process anymore.
I think the fact that Ford are saying they are still looking at it is in recognition that it's a strong brand despite what is said about it out here. I certainly don't believe its irretrievably damaged but to move forward has to be with both eyes open and both parties with an eye on the prize.
Without going too far into the FPV side of what's coming I think within two years there will be scope to bring XR8 back with what we have and make it work. The question will be more of if Ford think they need to do it.

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 04:10 PM
I agree Youssef but....

There is no Falcon badge Ford with a V8. The Falcons running around with a V8 are using what is considered to be Prodrives property. It's a thin distinction I know but on a technicality Ford have removed themselves of a V8 option again. It's been a matter of convenience that has allowed them to slip through to the keeper and the media have gone easy on them.
Let me in a press room and watch the reaction.

I completely agree that supporting the Prodrive option should be high on the list. It's an initiative that deserves unreserved support, but in this political correct world we live in the two sides aren't completely aligned as they should be.

I am going to be very interested to read what the Brutes do to the 5.0 to maintain parity with the 6.0.
Technically Ian the last True all Ford V8 was the 5.4 3V..... FPV made the 260 XR8 engine for the life of the B/F series, and Tickford the T/XR8 engines for AU.

HSE2
23rd January 2012, 04:25 PM
The 260 engine was Fords dollars, as was the stroker. It's not known what percentage if any Ford spent on the Miami project but they don't seem to be given any credit in the break down so it's for this reason I say this engine is the first of the Ford non V8s. Prodrive claim they own the engine and control the engine, subject I guess to he US continuing the supply agreement. The 5.4 was Ford Aust engine. It's possible Prodrive owned some of the parts in it but they never really made an issue out of it. The business case seemed to be supported by virtue Ford were paying for the parts to sit there till invoiced against the finished car.
Miami is technically the first V8 fitted to a Falcon that wasn't isn't owned by Ford.

HSE2
23rd January 2012, 06:21 PM
Technically Ian the last True all Ford V8 was the 5.4 3V..... FPV made the 260 XR8 engine for the life of the B/F series, and Tickford the T/XR8 engines for AU.

Sorry I didn't read that properly.

jpd80
23rd January 2012, 06:24 PM
FPV took a shot and it really paid off, boosting sales but what's going on with F6 sales?

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 06:32 PM
FPV took a shot and it really paid off, boosting sales but what's going on with F6 sales?
Without being a smarty pants here the current F6 sales position is exactly what i though would happen if the Miami was a success. You can get a new F6 for under 59K now, rediculous value, but it competes with the GS which offers similar performance but that all important exhaust note..
I hate to say it but i just cant see how the F6 will survive past FGII because i think FPV will consolidate and focus on 1 engine program now, they've already said the i6T engine development program has been completed and no further development will happen as its reached the ceiling on future ADR compliant development.

Adrenaline
23rd January 2012, 08:23 PM
I don't think we will be seeing the XR8 return any time soon. The following document shows clearly that the GS line has replaced the XR8 (in Ford's eyes atleast) and on top of that I recall reading that Ford/FPV felt that the NA 5.0 wasn't enough (at that point) to shift the Falcon's mass competitively.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5474/59636570.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/59636570.jpg/)

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 08:44 PM
Sorry I didn't read that properly.
I liked your explination better anyway, i think the investment, stakeholdings and accountancy of Miami need further exploration and explanation too..

4Vman
23rd January 2012, 08:47 PM
I don't think we will be seeing the XR8 return any time soon. The following document shows clearly that the GS line has replaced the XR8 (in Ford's eyes atleast) and on top of that I recall reading that Ford/FPV felt that the NA 5.0 wasn't enough (at that point) to shift the Falcon's mass competitively.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5474/59636570.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/59636570.jpg/)
Thankyou for that, i tend to agree.. as good as the N/A 5.0 is id like to see the torque and power graphs layed over a 6.0 L98 before id feel comfortable it would work. I Know Youssef is very comfortable with the N/A 5.0, it certainly works well in the lighter smaller Mustang.

Falc'man
23rd January 2012, 11:53 PM
Just visualise the following on a graph and tell me which motor you'd rather have!
528Nm @ 4250rpm, 314kW @ 6500rpm
530Nm @ 4400rpm, 270kW @ 5700rpm

4Vman
24th January 2012, 06:01 AM
Just visualise the following on a graph and tell me which motor you'd rather have!
528Nm @ 4250rpm, 314kW @ 6500rpm
530Nm @ 4400rpm, 270kW @ 5700rpm
:-) yes i agree its peak numbers are fantastic, but whats it doing from 0-3500 rpm?

Falc'man
24th January 2012, 09:15 AM
:-) yes i agree its peak numbers are fantastic, but whats it doing from 0-3500 rpm? You tell me what the 6.0 is doing from 0-3500rpm! After all, out of the two, it's the one that reaches it's peak later at 4400.

4Vman
24th January 2012, 09:28 AM
You tell me what the 6.0 is doing from 0-3500rpm! After all, out of the two, it's the one that reaches it's peak later at 4400.
You're probably right, afterall the AFM 6.0 is a 14 sec 400m car now. The thing that worries me is in auto guise the 290 FG XR8 was actually quicker than the auto AFM SS and just as fuel efficient yet everyone claimed it didn't sell because of a performance and fuel economy deficiency... i'm baffled, so how does that work?

Also the XR6T was quicker than both yet got pounded by the SS in sales too, and i cant see a N/A XR8 being quicker than a XR6T.

I'm asking myself, with history ringing in my ears what's changed (outward looking in) considering its got a 400cc smaller engine even if its quicker than the SS?

Ford would have to find a way to pitch a N/A XR8 differently, or get a break from the media who largely killed the XR8 with bad press.... Because in the eyes of the largely uneducated public it will be seen (smaller engine and all) as groundhog day.

Maybe killing the XR6T will bring people who want the best Ford product to be a V8 back to the brand? Maybe the XR6T has hurt the XR8 more than the SS did?

I dont know, the whole subject makes my head spin in frustration!

TICK4D-TAS
24th January 2012, 09:53 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head Norm. The press have never ever been in favour of the XR8. Not for as long as i remember. They have always stated that they are underpowered and use fuel. This has generally been the medias take on all Ford products, i dont think it was unit the F6 310 and now with the Boss 335 S/C that the media has started to favour and talk up the FPV products. Well only the engine, they still seem to dig at every other aspect of the car.

Holden / HSV seem to have the marketing and cult following that Ford cant seem to match. I know a couple of guys that have sold an XR6T and an XR8 just to buy an SS and a VT clubsport so that they have a popular car. I dont think you will ever hear of the reverse of that happening.

4Vman
24th January 2012, 10:11 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head Norm. The press have never ever been in favour of the XR8. Not for as long as i remember. They have always stated that they are underpowered and use fuel. This has generally been the medias take on all Ford products, i dont think it was unit the F6 310 and now with the Boss 335 S/C that the media has started to favour and talk up the FPV products. Well only the engine, they still seem to dig at every other aspect of the car.

Holden / HSV seem to have the marketing and cult following that Ford cant seem to match. I know a couple of guys that have sold an XR6T and an XR8 just to buy an SS and a VT clubsport so that they have a popular car. I dont think you will ever hear of the reverse of that happening.
Yeah it really pisses me off... I wanted an XR8 instead of my current XR6, but i held off as my Dealer told me a better 8 wasnt far away and they'd help me out of the XR6 when the time was right .. (He's since left the dealership :-(.... ).

Ive owned an AUII 220KW XR8, BAXR8 and BFXR8 (supplied for a staff member), so i've supported the XR8 product with my wallet and mouth, the BA/F's were much better cars than the media made out.

I owned the AU and BA at the same time, both had cat back exhausts and K+N filters and the BA would walk away from the AU in a straight line, it was without question a quicker car, especially once things got above 3000 rpm.

My Next door neighbor had a VX SS and the BF would hold dead even in a straight line, he then owned a clubsport which was only marginally faster. All this talk of them being slugs and pigs down low is highly over inflated and usually regurgitated by people who have never owned or driven one, they're just media parrots.

The problem is its the ground swell of negativity that proliferated into a self for-filling prophesy.

The media have more unwarranted and unjustified blood on their hands that they'll ever admit... so do some Forums.

Brand loyalty seems much stronger on the red side too.

Falc'man
24th January 2012, 10:17 AM
You're probably right, afterall the AFM 6.0 is a 14 sec 400m car now. The thing that worries me is in auto guise the 290 FG XR8 was actually quicker than the auto AFM SS and just as fuel efficient yet everyone claimed it didn't sell because of a performance and fuel economy deficiency... i'm baffled, so how does that work?

Also the XR6T was quicker than both yet got pounded by the SS in sales too, and i cant see a N/A XR8 being quicker than a XR6T.

I'm asking myself, with history ringing in my ears what's changed (outward looking in) considering its got a 400cc smaller engine even if its quicker than the SS?

Ford would have to find a way to pitch a N/A XR8 differently, or get a break from the media who largely killed the XR8 with bad press.... Because in the eyes of the largely uneducated public it will be seen (smaller engine and all) as groundhog day.

Maybe killing the XR6T will bring people who want the best Ford product to be a V8 back to the brand? Maybe the XR6T has hurt the XR8 more than the SS did?

I dont know, the whole subject makes my head spin in frustration!
Ford need to be give the media tweaked press cars. It's not the right thing to do but the other side have been doing this for over a decade and keep getting away with it. It's something so simple but effective.

Really, the important thing is this. Holden out maneuvered and gazumped Ford with the placing of the VE SS, it was a povo pack SV8 in reality with the SS body kit. How much cheaper was that over the XR8? Price is a big factor in that bracket, and don't forget the massive discounting Holden were willing to give. Quickest V8 for the money. Ford reacted by putting the Boss 290 in the FG and for the first time priced it the same is the turbo. Too little, too late, because price was still higher than SS, and perception was it too slow. So, really, even if you say that most prospective buyers are impartial, why would they pay more for less? But you know, and you've said it many times, it's not impartiality more than Holden's loyalty base.

In effect these are heavy reasons to buy the SS over the FG. To those who care to see the merits of FG over VE, that is not the case.

The only way an n.a. XR8 could win the hearts of the masses is with the pocket AND with more power. That can't happen, Ford can't compete there, simply because price is king and the fact Holden are willing to sacrifice profits for sales.

FTe217
24th January 2012, 10:50 AM
Ford need to be give the media tweaked press cars. It's not the right thing to do but the other side have been doing this for over a decade and keep getting away with it. It's something so simple but effective.

Really, the important thing is this. Holden out maneuvered and gazumped Ford with the placing of the VE SS, it was a povo pack SV8 in reality with the SS body kit. How much cheaper was that over the XR8? Price is a big factor in that bracket, and don't forget the massive discounting Holden were willing to give. Quickest V8 for the money. Ford reacted by putting the Boss 290 in the FG and for the first time priced it the same is the turbo. Too little, too late, because price was still higher than SS, and perception was it too slow. So, really, even if you say that most prospective buyers are impartial, why would they pay more for less? But you know, and you've said it many times, it's not impartiality more than Holden's loyalty base.

In effect these are heavy reasons to buy the SS over the FG. To those who care to see the merits of FG over VE, that is not the case.

The only way an n.a. XR8 could win the hearts of the masses is with the pocket AND with more power. That can't happen, Ford can't compete there, simply because price is king and the fact Holden are willing to sacrifice profits for sales.

You just answered why a Ford XR8 isn't an option and I'm afraid to agree.
Price is King and it just doesn't add up anymore whilst the 6T has kept plugging the hole/s.
Most of this market buyers are fleet for xyz company who's main directive is it must have a tow pack and tint and the Price is Right !

prydey
5th February 2012, 01:33 PM
just throwing my hat into the ring. i'll start by saying i'm not an xr8 owner and won't be buying one in the future, so my opinions aren't those of a potential customer. basically, its just my opinion. i personally think, that while the GS looks like it does, there will be no xr8, afterall, what would be the difference?? and on that, i believe the GS undermines the FPV brand. they should all have the same design language. the same front bumpers/lights etc. by giving the GS the xr front, it tends to cheapen it. i understand it is an entry level FPV, but it is still an FPV and should at least look like one. thats all for now.

Lynton
5th February 2012, 02:03 PM
just throwing my hat into the ring. i'll start by saying i'm not an xr8 owner and won't be buying one in the future, so my opinions aren't those of a potential customer. basically, its just my opinion. i personally think, that while the GS looks like it does, there will be no xr8, afterall, what would be the difference?? and on that, i believe the GS undermines the FPV brand. they should all have the same design language. the same front bumpers/lights etc. by giving the GS the xr front, it tends to cheapen it. i understand it is an entry level FPV, but it is still an FPV and should at least look like one. thats all for now.

I tend to agree with you there, although a good package the GS has caused some issues for both Ford and FPV. I am sure we will see some direction in the future though, having XR6 and XR6T seems incomplete without XR8. The optimist in me says we will see the old girl back.

Force6
6th February 2012, 04:20 PM
Gday guys,

My thinkn is the same as prydeys but also

I'm confused?

Ford have an awesome line up of Falcons.. Turbo and non turbo. Excellent features great interiors and fuel economy and now a super charged beast that is way ahead of anything HSV have.

Why aren't they flooding the TV and newspapers with ads??:confused:

Falc'man
24th February 2012, 08:49 PM
i personally think, that while the GS looks like it does, there will be no xr8, afterall, what would be the difference?? and on that, i believe the GS undermines the FPV brand. they should all have the same design language. the same front bumpers/lights etc. by giving the GS the xr front, it tends to cheapen it. i understand it is an entry level FPV, but it is still an FPV and should at least look like one. thats all for now.
You make two points there, Rob. And they are very closely related.

1) What would be the difference if GS was branded XR8.

There's been a few things thrown around about why it was badged GS and not XR8. I believe it was the motor, and the price, which determined this, as well as giving themselves space for when/if they wanted to compete in the sub $50k bracket one day.


2) GS' lack of FPV appointments undermine the FPV brand.

I do agree with that. As it stands it's only the badges and starter button that differentiate it from the XR6T. Previously, though, the XR8's 260 was internally different to the FPV Boss motors. When XR8 later inherited the 290, it was still different courtesy of the many changes made to the 5.4 in 315 (and 302) guise. And like the first GS this Miami GS follows the same trend in that the only difference between it and the GT is the tune. So that pattern is still maintained.

Does that take it over the line and make it worthy of the FPV badge? According to the previous relationships between XR8 and FPV, yes. That's the pattern and trend set and I think that's a major factor why they didn't give it the XR badge.

In the end I do agree with your point because the compromise does stand out a lot, although it's closer to the superficial in a sense. There was a LOT of indecision about whether to make this an XR or not, in the end, I believe it's those two points - price, and the motor - that swayed them to make it an FPV.

In hindsight, what could they have done to work around these two points to make it an XR, and can they work with what they currently have to implement whatever hindsight brings?

The answer to my own question is no, I don't think they could have and the reason is the XR6T. As it stands it's as quick as the GS. To offer a Miami powered XR8 it would probably mean using a lesser iteration of the 5.0 - cheaper internals, to avoid the clash of dna - and also using lesser quality exhaust and intake systems, whilst that may bring it's price down somewhat, it wouldn't be on par with the Turbo for performance. That's the rock and the hard place they found themselves in.

Moving on to the future XR8.

We need to remember WHY there was such indecision surrounding the GS. Price and motor.
If XR8 rocks up for arguments' sake with Coyote, what would the actual differences be between it and the GS? Motor. Nothing else!
Then the price. Where would they place it? As pointed out earlier, if they were going for SS' jugular they can't do it without at least matching it's price, people in that bracket won't be swayed otherwise. That's $45k.

In the end we have an XR8 with 302kW at $45k, and a GS with 315kW at roughly $10k more. Brakes, interior, exterior, everything would be the same, although the XR8's rims would look better.

There's no way Ford or FPV would offer the above until they do actually give GS more profound FPV appointments, such as body kit and Brembos, at the very least. And some new rims please.

gary vann
25th February 2012, 01:24 AM
In the end we have an XR8 with 302kW at $45k, and a GS with 315kW at roughly $10k more. Brakes, interior, exterior, everything would be the same, although the XR8's rims would look better.

There's no way Ford or FPV would offer the above until they do actually give GS more profound FPV appointments, such as body kit and Brembos, at the very least. And some new rims please.


i will second that

prydey
25th February 2012, 06:22 AM
they will never offer both. if they decide to resurrect the xr8 nameplate and sell it under the ford banner, the GS will go. to me its that simple. there is no room for both. the only way to make it work is to add more differentiation, and that will add price. IF xr8 came back and GS was retained, it would have to be upgraded in some areas to justify the badge and extra price. if they upgrade brakes/interior etc, then it starts encroaching on GT so that would need some more differentiation etc etc. everything would blow out.

the way they have it at the moment seems to be working ok for them. i would just like to see them ditch the xr front and give it an FPV front. i guess then they'd need to make it look a bit different to GT etc...

flappist
25th February 2012, 08:49 AM
There is a problem. Ford have one V8 platform, the coyote, which is quite expensive. In order to revive the XR8 they have two choices:

1) Convert the GS to XR8 by taking off stripes and starter button.
2) Use another engine perhaps the N/A mustang V8.

Option 1 is easy but will make very little difference in price. The cries of "too expensive" and "$40k SS" for the great unwashed most of whom would not buy it new anyway would drown out any marketing.

Option 2 is even more expensive than option 1 as the new engine would have to go through all of then engineering stages with those costs amortised over a small number of cars.

FG XR8 was a massive sales flop despite it being more powerful than SS, the same power as B series FPV and discounted to match XR6T.
The election was held, voting with wallets was the vote that counted and XR8 lost its seat.

The almost constant drone that Holden can sell them why can't Ford always "conveniently" ignores two facts. Firstly Holden do not have a performance 6 and secondly and MOST IMPORTANTLY in order for Ford to sell XR8s there is a requirement for customers to buy XR8s. When even the hard core Ford XR8 lovers did not buy them for whatever excuse they would like to proffer how is Ford expected to gamble on a new XR8 in this current economic climate.

I, personally, think that Ford and FPV have done the right thing with the exception that the GS should be available without stripes and a new Pursuit/SP made.

WASP
25th February 2012, 01:47 PM
IMO if the XR8 sees a comeback it will be in the form of what would have otherwise been a GS. The GS can, and mostly will remain a FPV model but it is likely to resemble what a GT represents today. The cycle will continue as the GT model range evolves, and comes with more equipment and performance levels to remain competitive. The beauty of the FPV motor is it has been designed from the outset for scale, extending Ford and FPV more options for expansion. There is still considerable cost in do this however which is most likely why we haven’t seen the XR8 appear as yet. It’s not so much that the GS cannot be easily transitioned into a Ford model again. The problem as I see it would be in the cost and timing to restructuring, and introducing further value into the FPV model range. I prediction is we won’t see this transition until the next model variation assuming a business case can be supported.

As for the success of the SS and SSV, it is a heavily well-appointed car and the market perceives the larger 6.0 size of the motor to be dominant, regardless of whether it is or isn’t. The SSv in particular represents a strong value proposition that even the GS struggles to measurable up against as a total package. This comes down to Holden understanding their target market extremely well. Make no mistake; there is a pissing contest going on for the Australian sedan with the biggest set of balls. Right of wrong, the ‘big’ 6.0ltr leads the way in the hearts and minds of the market which these cars destined for.

The problem to solve for Ford is a marketing one first and foremost. They need to understand who they are selling to and what this audience needs, and wants in order to part with their money. Once they work this out they can win the hearts and minds of the V8 masses.

phillyc
25th February 2012, 03:04 PM
What if the XR8 came out with an NA 5.8L version of Coyote?!

Use a similar setup to the 5.0L F150 (270kW/515Nm) and the outputs could jump nicely to 310kW/590Nm. Just pare back the torque figure to about 550Nm.

gary vann
25th February 2012, 03:21 PM
we have been telling ford and fpv what we would like and want in a car for years but it seems to fall on deaf ears ,
i think the gs is in the right place , for the sedan at least if you want more you can buy a gt , but a lot of people have been looking for an up spec fpv ute ,
they wouldn't need to do much to it to make it a must have , brakes , different wheels , twin exhaust , and a fpv grill in the standard gs front , then the gs ute wouldn't look out of place , holden did this with the gxp maloo , same power as the e3 maloo , no hard cover , or side skirts and 245 mm rear tyers instead of 275 mm , and single rear piston caliper instead of the 4 pot brembos on the rear, the front still had 4 pot brembos on the front , all for a $10.000 price reduction , i think fpv should have a upspec ute and yes i am willing to pay more for it . or is there going to be a ppp shop opening in the future ?????

Falc'man
25th February 2012, 04:15 PM
What if the XR8 came out with an NA 5.8L version of Coyote?!

Use a similar setup to the 5.0L F150 (270kW/515Nm) and the outputs could jump nicely to 310kW/590Nm. Just pare back the torque figure to about 550Nm.
Phil, a 5.8 doesn't exist.

4Vman
25th February 2012, 04:48 PM
we have been telling ford and fpv what we would like and want in a car for years but it seems to fall on deaf ears ,
i think the gs is in the right place , for the sedan at least if you want more you can buy a gt , but a lot of people have been looking for an up spec fpv ute ,
they wouldn't need to do much to it to make it a must have , brakes , different wheels , twin exhaust , and a fpv grill in the standard gs front , then the gs ute wouldn't look out of place , holden did this with the gxp maloo , same power as the e3 maloo , no hard cover , or side skirts and 245 mm rear tyers instead of 275 mm , and single rear piston caliper instead of the 4 pot brembos on the rear, the front still had 4 pot brembos on the front , all for a $10.000 price reduction , i think fpv should have a upspec ute and yes i am willing to pay more for it . or is there going to be a ppp shop opening in the future ?????Gary.. i really dont think that's a very fair way to assess things...

FPV do listen to their customers but you need to consider a few things;
Not everyone is asking for the same thing, what you think is important may not show up in broader consumer research.
Not everything we ask for is financially viable.
Not everything we ask for will live within the parameters of technical durability or meet Fords design standards.

We live in a compromised world as far as FPV is concerned, but to blindly say FPV dont listen is really a bit unfair and not looking at the possible reasons for current build specs..

gary vann
25th February 2012, 08:26 PM
i dont think i am being unfair every thing that i have pointed out is already on a fpv gt or f6 , so it is financially viable and already meets Fords design standards
you might be right and they do listen but it doesn't seem to filter into there products , ford has done a great job with the fg mk 11 all fpv added to the gs are a rear bar , floor mats , an alarm , and premium sound system, i still have to option a 6 stacker wtf . who is the broader consumer ? i have written directly to fpv with my thoughts they said they have a lot of exciting things coming up but they don't think it will filter into the ute , every motor magzine and car forum has been saying the same things that are bugging me , hell it cant be that hard to make a gs ute a bit more special , i also think that when news of the new motor surfaced that would of had a huge negative impact on fg xr8 and pursuit sales , not a great reason to drop an established brand .

4Vman
27th February 2012, 07:53 AM
Had a giggle this morning, it seems some people think Ford can just drop a Miami into the XR and drop the price to SS levels... sounds so simple right?

Do people realise possibly one of the main reasons the GS exists as a FPV model rather than an XR8 as a Ford model is due to its BUILD COST and to create some kind of premium to offset costs???

What's an easier "sell"? Ford XR8 @ $63K or FPV GS @ $63K.....

Like it or not FPV need to recover their engine development and engine build costs, to ignore this is stupid, it probably adds 6-7K to the COST of making the car, which translates into 9-10K RRP..

You cant just pluck RRP's out of your bum and build a car at a loss.. oh wait, Holden do that don't they....

prydey
27th February 2012, 08:03 AM
those that really want an XR8 are buying GS's.

all the talkers and whingers would still be doing the same even if ford offered a cheaper version. it doesn't cost anything to jump on your keyboard.

4Vman
27th February 2012, 08:12 AM
those that really want an XR8 are buying GS's.

all the talkers and whingers would still be doing the same even if ford offered a cheaper version. it doesn't cost anything to jump on your keyboard.
I suspect you are spot on.

Lets not forget the more expensive GS is selling in far greater numbers than the FG XR8 did...

prydey
27th February 2012, 08:23 AM
which is why i remain positive that ford australia do actually know what they are doing, and the internet experts are the ones who don't have all the info at hand.

WASP
27th February 2012, 12:54 PM
Had a giggle this morning, it seems some people think Ford can just drop a Miami into the XR and drop the price to SS levels... sounds so simple right?

Do people realise possibly one of the main reasons the GS exists as a FPV model rather than an XR8 as a Ford model is due to its BUILD COST and to create some kind of premium to offset costs???

What's an easier "sell"? Ford XR8 @ $63K or FPV GS @ $63K.....

Like it or not FPV need to recover their engine development and engine build costs, to ignore this is stupid, it probably adds 6-7K to the COST of making the car, which translates into 9-10K RRP..

You cant just pluck RRP's out of your bum and build a car at a loss.. oh wait, Holden do that don't they....

Norm, on that thought just persist with my logic for a minute. ‘If’ the XR8 (now GS) managed to sell in the same volume as the SS/SSV models combined its cost are mostly likely to be amortised over the volume achieved. This would enable it to be priced more competitively.

The multi-million dollar question remains is this realistic in this market and will the gamble pay off? As it stands the GS is priced in the $60k plus region due to its limited forecasted sales volumes. I agree that the FPV badge does increases the value over the XR8 which would mean the Ford/FPV can possibly achieve the required margins necessary based on a much lower volume of sales. By the end of its model run the FG XR8 was selling in such low numbers that converting it into a niche market offering made total sense, enter the FPV GS.

Now here’s my point. For the XR8 to reappear as a viable business case it need (IMO) to be made as a volume seller, especially if Ford elect to put yet another engine in it other than FPVs. Alternative, without necessarily relying on high volume sales Ford could effectively 'reuse’ the current, but later to be outgoing FPV GS after its start-up development cost has been reduced and/or amortised through the past sales of the current model.

My apologies in advance mate if my logic isn’t that clear. It’s all hypothetical of course but makes for an interesting discussion.

4Vman
27th February 2012, 01:01 PM
Agree completely Colville, there were two roads to take, the gamble of high volume/low margin and stretched ammortisation or lower volume niche product. I think Ford know full well a competitevly priced XR8 wasn't going to sell at any rate, I'm not sure Ford could even get close too SS pricing anyway so it could be a mute point.
But chose the first option and get it wrong and boy you've made a huge rod for yourself...

4Vman
27th February 2012, 02:56 PM
Now here’s my point. For the XR8 to reappear as a viable business case it need (IMO) to be made as a volume seller, especially if Ford elect to put yet another engine in it other than FPVs. Alternative, without necessarily relying on high volume sales Ford could effectively 'reuse’ the current, but later to be outgoing FPV GS after its start-up development cost has been reduced and/or amortised through the past sales of the current model.

Ill elaborate on my previous post, sorry for being disjointed but IPhone isnt the best way to absorb some of this stuff!

For XR8 to return it must tick a few boxes;

1) XR8 has to be for the masses
2) it has to be the BEST performance product in FORDS stable
3) it needs competitive appointments
4) it needs to be priced competitively while returning profit to Ford.
5) it needs to offer decent performance against the SS.

The now dead FGXR8 in reality ticked 4 of those 5 boxes.....

There's an elephant in the room at Ford....

Falc'man
27th February 2012, 06:09 PM
Ill elaborate on my previous post, sorry for being disjointed but IPhone isnt the best way to absorb some of this stuff!
Are you reading this, Ian?

HSE2
27th February 2012, 06:13 PM
No I am watching the mobile world congress and the launch on the new 808.

Falc'man
27th February 2012, 06:20 PM
Norm, we're in trouble now.

gary vann
27th February 2012, 06:27 PM
one response i had from fpv was we don't have a competitor for the maloo ute, so i guess ford are not that worried about a competitor for the ss ute
if you want a v8 ute you can have a gs and that is it , witch isn't a bad thing , i don't know if fpv are going to up spec the gs ute in the future i guess we will have to wait and see
i am sure they wont say any thing until it happens so it wont impact on sales of the current model . the trouble with forums are your not talking to the people who are making the decisions
you are getting opinions from some people who are informed and some who are not .

phillyc
27th February 2012, 07:36 PM
Phil, a 5.8 doesn't exist.Yes, I realise mate :) Just putting it out there...

I do know that it can be done though as there are a few aftermarket suppliers making them already. True, they don't have to meet Ford's own tough in house quality / approval processes.

HSE2
28th February 2012, 10:08 AM
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404936_385689351442178_100000033496514_1649727_145 8668800_n.jpg

FTe217
28th February 2012, 10:43 AM
It may upset some people but imo why would Ford bother with the XR8 - unless they spiff it up more with more as Norm points out, whatever 8 from the US stable I don't think the low volume justifies so its FPV's GS as the choice for the consumer, XR8 sales were embarrassing procrastination killed it imo.
Make the Devils child XR6T more appealing for the Ford stable performance buyer :p

4Vman
28th February 2012, 11:35 AM
Make the Devils child XR6T more appealing for the Ford stable performance buyer :p
Yes... except if the best performance product from Ford was the XR8 and not the XR6T they'd have sold twice as many XR8's as they have currently sold XR6T's....

I think people have walked away from Ford rather than settle for the XR6T....

Red F6310
28th February 2012, 01:49 PM
Yes... except if the best performance product from Ford was the XR8 and not the XR6T they'd have sold twice as many XR8's as they have currently sold XR6T's....

I think people have walked away from Ford rather than settle for the XR6T....

If ford wouldnt have developed the XR6T then my dad would never have bought another new falcon back in late 2002 (he had one of the first BA XR6T's in SA) and i would never have bought my BF XR6T (which i still own) and then the G6ET and now my new F6.

Dad bought the XR6T as he no longer wanted a V8 (but he still wanted a "performance" car) and he wanted to try something different.... nearly 10yrs and 110000kms later he still loves the damn thing and has not had 1 problem with the car at all.

I have only bought the Turbo 6 falcons cos modern day V8's just dont do it for me (I love old school V8's though) and yes i have driven numerous BA onwards V8 falcons and some VZ/VE commodores over the past few years but none of them have excited me like the midrange rush of the turbo6

FTe217
29th February 2012, 01:45 PM
Yes... except if the best performance product from Ford was the XR8 and not the XR6T they'd have sold twice as many XR8's as they have currently sold XR6T's....

I think people have walked away from Ford rather than settle for the XR6T....

Thats the $64000 question ?
Now the XR8 was the better/best performer pre 6T - BA on it got smoked and not by just on road but by the press saluting the awesum performance/package of the 6pack hence contributing to the diminishing XR8 wiht the 260.
Next a large % of Fleet/Rep buyers who didn't like the whoosh being V8 lovers would have opted for the SS in that case, sharper pricing, always looked to offer more outside and inside.
.........but as F6310 posts many new prospective buyers did buy into the 6T who possibly never would have considered the XR8.

There's arguments either way - I'd love Ford to have a premium V8 again but why do I say this ? because I grew up with the halycon days ? most likely, my 2 boys probably would take the I6T in the future as the entry purchase for performance and when more coin come into their pocket head for FPV into the SC and beyond, don't know if it makes sense what I say but all I see is the buyer is a different animal compared to when the 8 was king for Ford.

Falc'man
29th February 2012, 03:05 PM
Makes perfect sense.

4Vman
29th February 2012, 05:06 PM
Thats the $64000 question ?
Now the XR8 was the better/best performer pre 6T - BA on it got smoked and not by just on road but by the press saluting the awesum performance/package of the 6pack hence contributing to the diminishing XR8 wiht the 260.
Next a large % of Fleet/Rep buyers who didn't like the whoosh being V8 lovers would have opted for the SS in that case, sharper pricing, always looked to offer more outside and inside.
.........but as F6310 posts many new prospective buyers did buy into the 6T who possibly never would have considered the XR8.

There's arguments either way - I'd love Ford to have a premium V8 again but why do I say this ? because I grew up with the halycon days ? most likely, my 2 boys probably would take the I6T in the future as the entry purchase for performance and when more coin come into their pocket head for FPV into the SC and beyond, don't know if it makes sense what I say but all I see is the buyer is a different animal compared to when the 8 was king for Ford.
BAXR8 was quicker than the first BA XR6T, pretty sure BAXR8 outsold it too, BF onwards is where the drift occured....

Having owned 3 XR8's now im what you would consider a "brand loyalist".
My opinions on this are in no way my opinions on the XR6T/XR8 product itself, but more a broader view of how and why XR8 died.

In my opinion every XR6T sale has ultimately cost Ford atleast 2 XR8 sales.... Why? well for a host of reasons;

1) like it or not the VAST majority of Ford/Holden performance buyers are V8 buyers first, its got NOTHING to do with their age, or "technology", look at the absolute plethora of 20 something SS ute owners.... The LSX engines are the lowest tech engine on the market, so i dont buy the "youth tech" angle or "old V8" angle at all.

2) The media have slaughtered the XR8, unjustly IMO.

3) Forum parrots who have neither owned or driven a new XR8 recite magazine dribble like they've owned 1 for 5 years and are scathing of the product, largely without challenge....

4) the performance deficit between XR8 to XR6T has "embarrassed" Ford buyers to leave the brand.

All this has done is ruined the image of the XR8.

I believe many Ford performance buyers have simply said "pfft... if the XR6T is better than the XR8 ill just buy some other brand, i dont want a turbo 6" or "ill wait".

Those people either are waiting, bought SS's or just walked away from performance vehicles into "A to B" vehicles...

These people need to be drawn back if XR8 is to be a success but it needs to be a better accepted product that it was and the XR6T has to go to make room for it.

Yep, controversial views but i believe them. Let me also say the XR6T is an outstanding vehicle, but there isnt room for it if Falcon and XR8 is to succeed.

Elks
29th February 2012, 05:46 PM
BAXR8 was quicker than the first BA XR6T, pretty sure BAXR8 outsold it too, BF onwards is where the drift occured....

Having owned 3 XR8's now im what you would consider a "brand loyalist".
My opinions on this are in no way my opinions on the XR6T/XR8 product itself, but more a broader view of how and why XR8 died.

In my opinion every XR6T sale has ultimately cost Ford atleast 2 XR8 sales.... Why? well for a host of reasons;

1) like it or not the VAST majority of Ford/Holden performance buyers are V8 buyers first, its got NOTHING to do with their age, or "technology", look at the absolute plethora of 20 something SS ute owners.... The LSX engines are the lowest tech engine on the market, so i dont buy the "youth tech" angle or "old V8" angle at all.

2) The media have slaughtered the XR8, unjustly IMO.

3) Forum parrots who have neither owned or driven a new XR8 recite magazine dribble like they've owned 1 for 5 years and are scathing of the product, largely without challenge....

4) the performance deficit between XR8 to XR6T has "embarrassed" Ford buyers to leave the brand.

All this has done is ruined the image of the XR8.

I believe many Ford performance buyers have simply said "pfft... if the XR6T is better than the XR8 ill just buy some other brand, i dont want a turbo 6" or "ill wait".

Those people either are waiting, bought SS's or just walked away from performance vehicles into "A to B" vehicles...

These people need to be drawn back if XR8 is to be a success but it needs to be a better accepted product that it was and the XR6T has to go to make room for it.

Yep, controversial views but i believe them. Let me also say the XR6T is an outstanding vehicle, but there isnt room for it if Falcon and XR8 is to succeed.

A round of applause for Norm please.

I coulsd see myself in all of your scenario's. I've been fortunate and landed out the far end with an FPV, but had many false starts along the way. If the XR8 was the equal of an SS I'd have bought one.

4Vman
29th February 2012, 06:15 PM
A round of applause for Norm please.

I coulsd see myself in all of your scenario's. I've been fortunate and landed out the far end with an FPV, but had many false starts along the way. If the XR8 was the equal of an SS I'd have bought one.
Yep Tony.... and its predominantly why i ended up with an XR6 and not a XR6T.... i wanted an XR8 but it was obviously dead as a model and resale worried me with all the negativity towards it and i just couldnt bring myself to spend the extra on a XR6T.

I was done a deal to wait for a GS....

galaxy xr8
29th February 2012, 06:59 PM
I believe there is also a maturity factor that might effect certain buyer's, the younger consumer's are more likely to purchase a product that is percieved as "a must have in today's fashion" and unfortunatley the Ford brand is not that for this generation. Where as older more mature consumer's will do their homework and purchase on what actually suit's their day to day need's.
This could also back up Norm's statement that V8 people will buy a V8 product, which lean's more to those that grew up in the era where V8's were the thing.
These day's the younger gen are keen on Turbo's etc and Ford did see this as a market that they pursued, But did they look at the Long term effect's of this, did they bite the hand that feed's them ?.

4Vman
29th February 2012, 07:10 PM
The game might get a bit more interesting once the 40mill Miami bill is paid off.... i just hope the Falcon is around when each Falcon fitted with a Miami donk can drop 8K off its RRP at no loss of margin.....
THEN Ford could re release a S/C XR8 @ 50ish k..... Untill then they're stuck between a rock and hard place.

Elks
29th February 2012, 11:57 PM
This could also back up Norm's statement that V8 people will buy a V8 product, which lean's more to those that grew up in the era where V8's were the thing.
These day's the younger gen are keen on Turbo's etc and Ford did see this as a market that they pursued,

.

That doesn't explain the bazillion young fella's (and a surprising number of girls as well) who either want or have an LS powered Holden.

Red F6310
1st March 2012, 12:06 AM
BAXR8 was quicker than the first BA XR6T, pretty sure BAXR8 outsold it too, BF onwards is where the drift occured....

Having owned 3 XR8's now im what you would consider a "brand loyalist".
My opinions on this are in no way my opinions on the XR6T/XR8 product itself, but more a broader view of how and why XR8 died.

In my opinion every XR6T sale has ultimately cost Ford atleast 2 XR8 sales.... Why? well for a host of reasons;

1) like it or not the VAST majority of Ford/Holden performance buyers are V8 buyers first, its got NOTHING to do with their age, or "technology", look at the absolute plethora of 20 something SS ute owners.... The LSX engines are the lowest tech engine on the market, so i dont buy the "youth tech" angle or "old V8" angle at all.

2) The media have slaughtered the XR8, unjustly IMO.

3) Forum parrots who have neither owned or driven a new XR8 recite magazine dribble like they've owned 1 for 5 years and are scathing of the product, largely without challenge....

4) the performance deficit between XR8 to XR6T has "embarrassed" Ford buyers to leave the brand.

All this has done is ruined the image of the XR8.

I believe many Ford performance buyers have simply said "pfft... if the XR6T is better than the XR8 ill just buy some other brand, i dont want a turbo 6" or "ill wait".

Those people either are waiting, bought SS's or just walked away from performance vehicles into "A to B" vehicles...

These people need to be drawn back if XR8 is to be a success but it needs to be a better accepted product that it was and the XR6T has to go to make room for it.

Yep, controversial views but i believe them. Let me also say the XR6T is an outstanding vehicle, but there isnt room for it if Falcon and XR8 is to succeed.

Good to see your opinion but it one that i dont fully agree with (yes im a fan of the Turbo 6)

Most young lads that drive/own a V8 SS ute do so because its a HOLDEN not because the heavy cammer 5.4L ford V8 was lacking in performance.

90% of young guys (under 30) i know wouldnt be seen dead owning/driving a falcon ute no matter how bloody good the thing was (its a family thing, you know the saying my dad drove a holden and his dad drove a holden blah blah blah), and the young guys that have bought modern falcons have all gone either straight for the XR6T utes or if there wallets allowed they bought FPV pursuit utes not one of them considered a XR8.
I asked them why and there reply has been "the turbo 6 is best bang for bucks and is a fully aussie built engine" or they say the "FPV ute was worth the $$$ to get the exclusiveness of a FPV product" (funny that none consider the F6 ute even though it was better performing vehicle that the pursuit/super pursuit)

Now im in my late 30's and have a wide range of friends across a wide range of age groups and nearly all of them agree that the turbo 6 is a great engine BUT it doesnt have the noise of a old school V8 (they also say the same about the ford SC 5L and how it sounds fake with its SC whine)...
I just smile at them and say if noise from ya Holden (chev) V8 gets ya all hard then go for it, i'll just sit back and waft along on the fat midrange torque of my fully AUSSIE BUILT turbo 6 and enjoy the cheaper running cost (rego etc) and IF i want to hear a V8 scream then i'll just go into my shed and fire up my old 65 ford which is running a nicely built 347 stroker.

At the end of the day we are just lucky that Ford gave us the choice of 2 different performance engines... and it was lucky that the T6 has been able to hold the performance batton for ford/fpv in magazine tests until the SC 5L came along, cos there was no way the 5.4L was going to do that from the day dot (in stock form)

So good to be able to give our opinions on this forum with out being shot down like a person would on that "other" forum :cool:

Red F6310
1st March 2012, 12:46 AM
That doesn't explain the bazillion young fella's (and a surprising number of girls as well) who either want or have an LS powered Holden.

Thats mainly because holden dont have a decent "performance" 6 in there stable.

If they had released the twin turbo 3.6 as displayed a few years ago in that torana concept car then maybe there would be some holden fans that would go for the 6 (just look back to the VL commodore days and how many young guys picked them up when the turbos got a name for themselves) BUT having said that i also guess that alot of young people like the V8 commodores cos they can say they have a "Chevy V8"

There always seems to be a stigma against Ford australia and no matter what they do they always seem to cop flak, which most of the time is unwarrented.
The hardest part for Ford is breaking that mindset that Holden is "Australias own".
As i said in another post its the old "my dad drove a holden and so did his dad etc etc" and then theres there mates that get a holden and of course they dont wanna be the odd one out so they get one too and its a flow on effect.

Glad when i was teenager growing up in country SA (in the late 80's), i wasnt a "Sheep" like my holden loving/owing mates who would always follow eachother with the cars they bought and would always always rib me for owning crappy falcons or "jap crap" turbo lasers .... Funny thing was it was always my car to the rescue when there holden would break down and it was a saturday night out....

Moving on to nowdays and most are married with kids and guess what they are driving.... You guessed it either "jap crap" Toyota hiluxes/landcruisers or korean built craptivas.... Only 2 of them have seen past there rose coloured holden glasses and bought AWD SY2 territorys, with 1 of them saying fuck i wish id bought one of these earlier, this thing is so much nicer out here than my craptiva was.....

I will also say though that most of them who have been for a thrash in my F6 have said that its damn nice car but..... "Pity its a Ford" :mad:

4Vman
1st March 2012, 06:25 AM
I get the whole "bang for buck" thing with the XR6T, that's possibly one of its main draw cards, its been popular amongst modders for that simple reason, its cheap to buy and cheap to mod and get significant results, but it isn't just the domain of young blokes, even fat old blokes like the turbo because its cheap to mod. That said if the GS was the same price as the XR6T how many XR6T's do you think Ford would sell....

Look at the F6 now... an outstanding car in its own right but they cant give them away because the S/C 5.0 ticks all the boxes the 6T does plus 25% more..

But most people don't modify their cars.

In the technology stakes the S/C 5.0 is a far more advanced engine and has more technology than the 6T does, Hell, even when the F6 was quicker than the GT it was outsold by it 2:1, so that says to me people WANT the V8, regardless of technology..

Whilst the 6T powered cars have been mildly popular you could argue the uptake just hasn't been anywhere near what it should be given its outstanding performance against its competition.. there has to be a reason for that which is my point..! :-)

In an ideal world Ford/FPV NEEDED Miami 6 years ago.

But things aren't that simple, the 5.4 was definitely not the dog some people make it out to be.

Red F6310
1st March 2012, 08:30 AM
Thats cos BOGANS will never own a T6 no matter how good it is, its part of the reason why the falcon is on its knees BUT unfortunately the future for big sized engines (turbo 6 and V8) are in decline ford know that and so do holden.

You have ur opinion and i have mine which we are both entitled to. At the end of the.day the 5.4 didnt appeal to me and neither did the SC5L despite me spending a lot of time 1 before buying my F6

FTe217
1st March 2012, 08:59 AM
BAXR8 was quicker than the first BA XR6T, pretty sure BAXR8 outsold it too, BF onwards is where the drift occured....

Ofcourse it started off in the XR8's favour (XR6T was an unknown not a fair comparo) and outsold purely from the loyalists wanting it but in time diluted
Having owned 3 XR8's now im what you would consider a "brand loyalist".
My opinions on this are in no way my opinions on the XR6T/XR8 product itself, but more a broader view of how and why XR8 died.

Agree so is my comments
In my opinion every XR6T sale has ultimately cost Ford atleast 2 XR8 sales.... Why? well for a host of reasons;

1) like it or not the VAST majority of Ford/Holden performance buyers are V8 buyers first, its got NOTHING to do with their age, or "technology", look at the absolute plethora of 20 something SS ute owners.... The LSX engines are the lowest tech engine on the market, so i dont buy the "youth tech" angle or "old V8" angle at all.

20 something SS/ute owners were always there before BSeries nothing new - they protected their market share and gave what their market desires even if to us at low tech whereas we/Ford need the youth to come in hence the 6T is good for NEW customers whereas many of us Ford V8 buyers have been reluctant
2) The media have slaughtered the XR8, unjustly IMO.

Yep they have kept doing this for years against Ford just as AU days
3) Forum parrots who have neither owned or driven a new XR8 recite magazine dribble like they've owned 1 for 5 years and are scathing of the product, largely without challenge....

Agree
4) the performance deficit between XR8 to XR6T has "embarrassed" Ford buyers to leave the brand.

Lets go back further - I believe Ford have embarrassed us since EB/EL GT's (5.6l wheezer come good but all too late) - then the piece of resistance the I6T became the Ford Godzilla - Ford in turn have etched away at our Loyalty and it hurts hence their current scenario when finally they have the powa - ironic isn't it
All this has done is ruined the image of the XR8.

yep
I believe many Ford performance buyers have simply said "pfft... if the XR6T is better than the XR8 ill just buy some other brand, i dont want a turbo 6" or "ill wait".

A % sure would have taken this view
Those people either are waiting, bought SS's or just walked away from performance vehicles into "A to B" vehicles...

yep

These people need to be drawn back if XR8 is to be a success but it needs to be a better accepted product that it was and the XR6T has to go to make room for it.
IF the XR8 is re introduced they cannot rely on the SC engine alone - it needs a little more bling inside and out and directly price pointed to SS to drag joe average back
Yep, controversial views but i believe them. Let me also say the XR6T is an outstanding vehicle, but there isnt room for it if Falcon and XR8 is to succeed.
I don't think controversial views - what are I6T sales any one ?


I hope the above quotes work out.......

Carrying on - sorry Norm I couldn't put myself in a 5.4 and possibly many Loyalists like me felt the same.
I really wanted to believe me - heck I have driven many and I just couldn't take myself over the line, even considered a F6 and drove them - friggen loved it but I know upon a year or so I'd yearn for my 8 sound and feel and being in business I won't accept the depreciation in that short time.
Anyway I hope they revive the marque - its part of the furniture but what a decision to make in this vast changing world.

4Vman
1st March 2012, 10:39 AM
I hope the above quotes work out.......

Carrying on - sorry Norm I couldn't put myself in a 5.4 and possibly many Loyalists like me felt the same.
I really wanted to believe me - heck I have driven many and I just couldn't take myself over the line, even considered a F6 and drove them - friggen loved it but I know upon a year or so I'd yearn for my 8 sound and feel and being in business I won't accept the depreciation in that short time.
Anyway I hope they revive the marque - its part of the furniture but what a decision to make in this vast changing world.
yep all made sense!
Make no mistake, XR6T and F6 are outstanding cars with outstanding engines but the I6T engine itself just doesn't "do it" for the majority of Ford brand performance enthusiasts, young or old.

Ive even read somewhere someone claims the Coyote engine is cheaper to procure and land here than it costs to make the I6T??!!!!! Sheer lunacy.

4Vman
1st March 2012, 11:06 AM
On a slight tangent, but relevant to the "XR8" price point has anyone actually taken the time to investigate the REAL cost of a SS? Advertised 11 plate cars @ 41990 drive away...
Well yes, if you want a manual and pox color... Auto is 43990 drive away... but same VERY limited stock situation.. So is this the REAL price or just gimmicky advertising to get you in the door.
Wonder what a Red or Alto Grey 2012 auto SS ordered with tint and a few minor options would REALLY cost.... Closer to 50k id suggest. A SSV would be north of 50k in same kit.

Cheapest SSV redlines are 55K... So GS isnt that far off the mark for "apples V Apples". In Fact GS sedans are now retailing drive away for 54K..

In real "i want my color and a few options" terms the SS and SSV aren't the 42K bargains everyone is claiming.

FTe217
1st March 2012, 01:35 PM
Gimmicky PR gets them in - always demos but thats what keeps the numbers ticking over.
SS V Redlines new I see $55kish +/- either man/auto but compared to GS they have more fruit NO ?
Base SS at mid $40's isn't bad entry for the punter thats the thing.
From experience the GM dealer is far more willing to drop the pricing compared to the Ford and again the punter jumps.

galaxy xr8
1st March 2012, 01:47 PM
That doesn't explain the bazillion young fella's (and a surprising number of girls as well) who either want or have an LS powered Holden.

No but it also resembles what else I said and that is in today's sense for the younger gen, Holden is a fashion statement.

4Vman
1st March 2012, 02:52 PM
Gimmicky PR gets them in - always demos but thats what keeps the numbers ticking over.
SS V Redlines new I see $55kish +/- either man/auto but compared to GS they have more fruit NO ?
Base SS at mid $40's isn't bad entry for the punter thats the thing.
From experience the GM dealer is far more willing to drop the pricing compared to the Ford and again the punter jumps.
Yes base SS isnt bad price, but its a povo job compared to the XR interior and is really a SV8 not a SS...

SSVRL @ 55K V GS with some fruit for 59K V F6 @ 60K.... Got me stuffed why anyone would buy a SSVRL...

Elks
1st March 2012, 07:16 PM
Im a way biased V8 owner so take this with a grain of salt. One of the great things about a V8 vs the T6, is they are still fun to drive at 1/4 throttle with the lovely V8 burble. They are slower than a T6 particularly the older ones, but fun. When you pull up people smile, whereas a T6 is a taxi until better than 50% throttle. An XR8 would address this.

Perko
11th March 2012, 05:08 PM
As much as I would love the XR8 badge to reappear I think that the business case deems that it will remain firmly shut. The GS, right or wrong, has taken its place for the foreseeable future. I think that Ford have deliberately been playing with the media and the whole "future" thing until the next platform for the Falcon has been determined. Under the One Ford model there is room for a RWD large car. Australia might have to compromise with a common chassis and major parts but with unique exterior and interior components. This could mean that the 5.0 N/A and S/C motors will still have a place. I love my V8's even though the Turbo is a hoot. If Ford do change the platform to FWD then I can guarantee that I will be considering purchasing a FG III GS ute. It may well be a collectors item.

Burnout
30th May 2012, 05:46 PM
Hell, I used to be a V8 owner, been complaining to myself that Ford have done it again, I was there when they dropped the V8 in 79, useing up the last stock in the XD's.
I remember when I brought my XE Ghia ESP in '82 for $17,825.00, I got a 351, however it wasn't and Aussie cast block but the thin wall casting Mexican block. Fantastic car, one of a couple I regret giving up.
My first car was a V8 a '54 Mainline Ute, Spew Yella it was, loved the thing to bits. Built a few Clevos, 302's, 351's, 4V & 2V. Got meself a GS XB Ute in '75, yanked the 302 out of it as I had a 'couple of contacts', I sold the thing and got a 302 Boss from the US and shoved that in the Ute. You could get some serious stuff for Clevos in those days and my Boss came with a Cross Boss intake manifold with four dual throat Webbers stuck on. Jesus it went well, I blew an E49 off one afternoon on the Harbour Bridge........ Four mile to the gallon though!
I even had the chance to give a mate a hand to build a side oiler FE 427 SOHC one time, fantastic. Except for degreeing the cams...Timeing chain went of forever.
I even got a chance to fiddle with Kerry Packers HE V12 Jag with twin Garrets on it. 1000hp and simply dangerous in the wet.
A mate was a V8 Ford man too and we got hold of his 4WD F-100 Short Wheel Base and gave it the business, lifted and inch or two, go rid of the 409 front diff and shoved a 411 in there sorted out the Clevo in it and went Volvo hunting in the thing. It could spin all four in the first two gears and was an evil beastie.

Just had so much fun you know, but I'm nearly, well, the big 60 and while I'm in me second childhood I just don't understand why Falcon isn't doing better. I hear all the talk, here and elsewhere, and I am still no better off. GMH have done some bloody good marketing over the last few years and that just might be the difference.
Take a look at Ford Aus over the years, it sold best to the conservative side of the Aussie market, while Holden trottted out their Meat pies..... Holden Cars stuff. I think all this is closer to the truth.
It's obviously the truth that fuel economy means sod all really, it didn't last time fuel got expensive in the '70's and it cost Ford big time, Holden didn't do so good with the Star Fire 4 either....
Now its SUV's big, little or crap ones are selling all over the joint. A lot of conservative buyers have gone Eruo or up market Jap. Ford was slow with the Diesel Terry, had lost the plot, now the XR8... I don't know where it will go, I know if I brought an 8 I could get a GS, however what about a cooking model?
I've had a good time over the years doing over Ford V8's, it's been fun, a real chest beater.... I hope it continues for a while yet.
I see these young blokes getting 400+ out of the rear of the Miami S/C and I get that tight chest again...... I don't think it's the ol' ticker either. Still love it!

HSE2
29th June 2012, 07:39 PM
Hell, I used to be a V8 owner, been complaining to myself that Ford have done it again, I was there when they dropped the V8 in 79, useing up the last stock in the XD's.
I remember when I brought my XE Ghia ESP in '82 for $17,825.00, I got a 351, however it wasn't and Aussie cast block but the thin wall casting Mexican block. Fantastic car, one of a couple I regret giving up.
My first car was a V8 a '54 Mainline Ute, Spew Yella it was, loved the thing to bits. Built a few Clevos, 302's, 351's, 4V & 2V. Got meself a GS XB Ute in '75, yanked the 302 out of it as I had a 'couple of contacts', I sold the thing and got a 302 Boss from the US and shoved that in the Ute. You could get some serious stuff for Clevos in those days and my Boss came with a Cross Boss intake manifold with four dual throat Webbers stuck on. Jesus it went well, I blew an E49 off one afternoon on the Harbour Bridge........ Four mile to the gallon though!
I even had the chance to give a mate a hand to build a side oiler FE 427 SOHC one time, fantastic. Except for degreeing the cams...Timeing chain went of forever.
I even got a chance to fiddle with Kerry Packers HE V12 Jag with twin Garrets on it. 1000hp and simply dangerous in the wet.
A mate was a V8 Ford man too and we got hold of his 4WD F-100 Short Wheel Base and gave it the business, lifted and inch or two, go rid of the 409 front diff and shoved a 411 in there sorted out the Clevo in it and went Volvo hunting in the thing. It could spin all four in the first two gears and was an evil beastie.

Just had so much fun you know, but I'm nearly, well, the big 60 and while I'm in me second childhood I just don't understand why Falcon isn't doing better. I hear all the talk, here and elsewhere, and I am still no better off. GMH have done some bloody good marketing over the last few years and that just might be the difference.
Take a look at Ford Aus over the years, it sold best to the conservative side of the Aussie market, while Holden trottted out their Meat pies..... Holden Cars stuff. I think all this is closer to the truth.
It's obviously the truth that fuel economy means sod all really, it didn't last time fuel got expensive in the '70's and it cost Ford big time, Holden didn't do so good with the Star Fire 4 either....
Now its SUV's big, little or crap ones are selling all over the joint. A lot of conservative buyers have gone Eruo or up market Jap. Ford was slow with the Diesel Terry, had lost the plot, now the XR8... I don't know where it will go, I know if I brought an 8 I could get a GS, however what about a cooking model?
I've had a good time over the years doing over Ford V8's, it's been fun, a real chest beater.... I hope it continues for a while yet.
I see these young blokes getting 400+ out of the rear of the Miami S/C and I get that tight chest again...... I don't think it's the ol' ticker either. Still love it!


Awesome post mate

defective
29th June 2012, 07:52 PM
when i bought my xr8 it came down to three cars, the xr, an 07 ss, and an optima.

the optima lost out because i knew no matter how much i liked the looksand the interior, i would get bored silly with the power, so it was down to the xr8 and the ss.

the interior of the ss lost it the sale, it was dull dreary and drab,all at once. both cars were basically povo spec.

the ss didnt go as well, but not enough to rule it out, and it made up for it by sounding awesome. it really was the interior that killed it.

i was quite prepared to jump ship to holden if it had impressed me, and for me that was a shock to the system,ive been pro ford for nearly two decades. but in the end, the fg stood head and shoulders above the ss. and i still love it to this day.

TS50
29th June 2012, 08:32 PM
Im a way biased V8 owner so take this with a grain of salt. One of the great things about a V8 vs the T6, is they are still fun to drive at 1/4 throttle with the lovely V8 burble. They are slower than a T6 particularly the older ones, but fun. When you pull up people smile, whereas a T6 is a taxi until better than 50% throttle. An XR8 would address this.

Tony, you best drive my F6 then mate, cos 50% throttle will have you in a lot of strife. There is no noise and theatre with a F6, but dont underestimate the throttle response. My BF F6 was like what you said, but the FG is a different ball game. Still I like you prefer the V8 burble. While the F6 is faster and more throttle responsive, the TS still puts a bigger smile on the dial

HSE2
7th December 2013, 09:04 AM
Well we now know it has a future, albeit a limited one. Thoroughly deserved and a car eagerly anticipated.