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HSE2
30th January 2015, 07:09 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/passat/90184/vw-passat-vs-ford-mondeo-mazda-6



. .
VWís new Passat aims to lead family cars back into the spotlight and knock out Ford and Mazda rivals


In recent years, buyers have been turning their backs on the large family car class and moving upmarket to the compact executive sector. But now, itís time for the family fightback, as new models are being launched with greater premium appeal, better performance and lower emissions than ever before.

The latest arrival to the class is the eighth-generation Volkswagen Passat saloon, which promises a best-ever mix of upmarket quality, low running costs and involving driving dynamics.

ē Best family cars

For its first test, weíve lined it up alongside another newcomer in the shape of the Ford Mondeo. Itís had a long gestation period, but the Estate model didnít fare well in its first test. So, can the hatchback in Titanium spec make amends?

Both cars will need to be at the top of their game to beat our current class champ, the Mazda 6, though. While the switch from hatch to saloon body robbed the stylish Mazda of some of its practicality, thereís no doubt that itís a fine performer, both in terms of emissions and driving involvement.

So, does the Passat have what it takes to win on its debut, can the Mondeo compete in hatchback guise, or will the 6 keep the newcomers at bay and retain its family car crown?

ē Volkswagen Passat review

ē Ford Mondeo review

ē Mazda 6 review

Follow the links above to read full reviews of each car, and scroll down to see which family favourite comes out on top...

Head-to-head

Boot versatility


VW Passat vs rivals - boots

Image 27 of 28

All three cars have long load areas that are hard to reach the back of, but the Fordís hatch tailgate means itís the easiest to access here, even though itís a stretch to close the high-opening rear door. The Mondeo offers a 550-litre capacity, although the VW betters that with 586 litres.

The Passat and 6 have levers to release the rear seatbacks. While the VWís fold flat automatically, the Mazda features a flat floor.

Company costs


VW Passat vs rivals - rear detail

Image 19 of 28

As the 6 has a lower list price and emits 104g/km, higher-rate earners choosing it will pay £80 a year less in tax than for its rivals.

ē Best company cars 2015

The Mondeo doesnít fare well, although business users should check out the ECOnetic model. It emits 107g/km, so is closer to the VW and Mazda for tax costs.

Option packs


VW Passat - interior detail

Image 7 of 28

The Mondeo offers the £2,000 optional Titanium X pack, plus the Winter Pack (£300), which adds a heated steering wheel and seats.

Options for the Passat include the Dynaudio sound pack (£1,620), Driverís Assistance Pack (£1,095) and Winter Pack with three-zone air-con and heated rear seats (£1,025).

Verdict

1st place: Volkswagen Passat


VW Passat - front tracking

Image 2 of 28

The Passat moves straight to the top of the family car class thanks to its winning combination of comfort, fine handling, a high-quality interior and excellent running costs. Itís also well equipped and can be specified with a range of options that only enhance the carís appeal. While the saloon body isnít the most versatile, it makes up for it with plenty of space for passengers and luggage.

2nd place: Mazda 6


Mazda 6 - front tracking

Image 20 of 28

If you want a family car thatís fun to drive, then the Mazda 6 is still the model of choice. The boot is smaller than its rivalsí, but itís still vast and will suit most needs. The biggest letdown is the dated dash, although it will be addressed in the carís forthcoming facelift. When that arrives, we have a feeling that the Passat wonít have its own way at the top of the class.

3rd place: Ford Mondeo


Ford Mondeo - front tracking

Image 12 of 28

We were underwhelmed by the Mondeo when we first tried it, and the launch of the Passat has only compounded the Fordís shortcomings. The new multimedia system and smarter cabin layout are a big upgrade from the old model, but itís not a patch on the Passat for quality, while itís also lost the driver appeal that made the old car a front runner in the class.
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Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/passat/90184/vw-passat-vs-ford-mondeo-mazda-6#ixzz3QFN84moM

WASP
30th January 2015, 12:48 PM
Ouch! The Mondeo really boomed out there.

FTe217
30th January 2015, 01:38 PM
TBH I'm not surprised - just proves they are behind the 8ball in this category once again.

Quoted below from the test :

We were underwhelmed by the Mondeo when we first tried it, and the launch of the Passat has only compounded the Ford’s shortcomings. The new multimedia system and smarter cabin layout are a big upgrade from the old model, but it’s not a patch on the Passat for quality, while it’s also lost the driver appeal that made the old car a front runner in the class.

VZTRT
30th January 2015, 02:24 PM
This will hurt Ford in Europe (which is the worse place for it to happen), down here won't even matter. Probably still nicer inside then a Camry.

HSE2
30th January 2015, 02:55 PM
Yes disappointing but hopefully Ford will react quickly to any valid critiisum the UK market makes.

What this demonstrates to me is how tough these segments are. Cut throat competitive quickly evolving volume products.

I think we are all uptodate with why Mondeo is so late to market, so perhaps that hasnt helped, although its not the layout that is getting the remarks in the red.

It will probably do very well out here now.

4Vman
30th January 2015, 04:24 PM
One of if not the most competitive market segment.

Not a great start.. There are question marks over Mondeo's weight too, Titanium nearly 1800 kgs, for a largish mid sized car that's pushing it, I thought FWD was supposed to reduce weight?

0-100 in 8.5 seconds? ouch.

The savings grace is none of its competitors are much better performance wise, its not a segment that will sell on performance numbers....

Price and appointments will be critical (except if you're Toyota).

Paxton
30th January 2015, 04:27 PM
I would have the Passat every day of the week.

Fusion being built in Spain has not helped the build quality - Ford should have known about this way before they kneejerked and closed down Belgium.

Perhaps the Mondeo is better off being built in Germany, and have Focus built in Spain?

HSE2
30th January 2015, 05:42 PM
I agree. Pricing is the key here. Its a good looked, has presences, on the road one of our media friends tells us. Its better appointed than falcon ever was, if ford can get people into dealerships to have a look, supply is such that people aren't turned away with delays, they have a good chance of selling up the charts.
I like the wagon myself. Could be the surprise.

HSE2
30th January 2015, 05:44 PM
The economy in Spain I assume was a major factor.

In theory, if a company has good standardization policies and procedures, over coming any cultural issues should be doable.

prydey
30th January 2015, 06:05 PM
Not a great start.. There are question marks over Mondeo's weight too, Titanium nearly 1800 kgs, for a largish mid sized car that's pushing it, I thought FWD was supposed to reduce weight?

0-100 in 8.5 seconds? ouch.


kerb weight is 1578kg. considering its basically the same size as a falcon its quite reasonable.

as for performance, believe it or not, that doesn't rate very highly on most people's list of what they need in their transport, and it wasn't long ago that mid 8sec was pretty handy for large 4cyl car. i drove an egas falcon wagon for nearly 2 years, and never had an issue with the performance credentials. mid 8's would be fine for a family car, and i know very few people that hold their foot flat until reaching 100 anyway.

the review is just one persons opinion, like most reviews. to me it sounds like they were against the mondeo before they even drove it, based on past experience.

4Vman
30th January 2015, 06:10 PM
Rob, go look up the weight of the 2015 titanium diesel wagon and sedan....

Also ones been weigh bridged.

Bluestuff1
30th January 2015, 06:14 PM
how much more power has it got over the current model.
mine is the 2.3L and it is gutless .....
it rides ok,and handles ok, but foot down on the motorway doesn't bring great rewards of power.....

4Vman
30th January 2015, 06:15 PM
how much more power has it got over the current model.
mine is the 2.3L and it is gutless .....
it rides ok,and handles ok, but foot down on the motorway doesn't bring great rewards of power.....

0-100 in 8.5 seconds tells the story

HSE2
30th January 2015, 07:01 PM
Rob, you are right, it is just one review and the UK press can be brutal.
I have followed most uk publications for my other interests. They tend to be pretty professional but don't have a feel for this particular effort.

The main car here is Mazda I feel. Mazda have a pretty good position in this country.

I just feel it would be more of a threat to mondeo in the perception stakes.

Norm, as you said, performance wont be a strong factor in this segment provided it doesn't feel obvious.

It will be mainly about how it feel behind the wheel.

One thing I would like to see Ford doing right now is pushing mondeo.

I would like to see them getting in peoples face with it.

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 06:40 AM
0-100 in 8.5 seconds tells the story

feels like geological time.......

4Vman
31st January 2015, 07:00 AM
feels like geological time.......

The issue for us here is we've become very accustomed to 6 second times for locally produced entry level cars in this segment and sub 6 second for performance versions..

The broader market who treat these vehicles as A - B is not looking for performance from these cars, the good news for Mondeo is 8.5 sec is par for the course amongst its FWD opponents so it wont be hampered by this time, especially once Holden shut shop.

Franco Cozzo
31st January 2015, 09:48 AM
IMO if you've got a 4 banger you need a manual trans, autos and 4 bangers don't mix.

flappist
31st January 2015, 10:05 AM
IMO if you've got a 4 banger you need a manual trans, autos and 4 bangers don't mix.

I know someone who has a turbo Barina auto which regularly embarrasses P bogans in their V6 commodores and I6 Falcons at traffic lights.

Paxton
31st January 2015, 10:19 AM
I know someone who has a turbo Barina auto which regularly embarrasses P bogans in their V6 commodores and I6 Falcons at traffic lights.

Where do you slot a DSG Damo? I have one with my 4 Cylinder. It works like an auto - I put it into D and forget about it.

Franco Cozzo
31st January 2015, 10:38 AM
Where do I put a DSG?

In the dealership being fixed I guess :highly_amused:

4Vman
31st January 2015, 10:41 AM
Where do I put a DSG?

In the dealership being fixed I guess :highly_amused:
Powershift FTW....

Or repair depending on how you look at it...

Franco Cozzo
31st January 2015, 10:44 AM
I'm not a fan of DSG at the moment, cool idea but its not working well at the moment, I think as a technology its not ready to be put into $20,000 commuter cars, leave it to the exotics.

Stick with regular slushbox autos at least they're reliable.

My sister and her boyfriend both have VWs (Polo and Passat) with DSGs and both are having problems with trans right at the tail end of warranty period.

4Vman
31st January 2015, 10:45 AM
Out of curiosity have ford done any recalls on this trans??? so much bad noise about it.

flappist
31st January 2015, 10:45 AM
Where do I put a DSG?

In the dealership being fixed I guess :highly_amused:

You are not old enough to remember the early autos.
They were far worse that the current DSGs

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 10:47 AM
IMO if you've got a 4 banger you need a manual trans, autos and 4 bangers don't mix.

i think i must agree here, 4 pots just don't seem to have enough torque to get autos to move along at any hast.....
economy and drivability also seem to loose out with auto on small motors...?

4Vman
31st January 2015, 10:48 AM
Yes, who can forget Holdens "Traumatic"....

Franco Cozzo
31st January 2015, 10:52 AM
You are not old enough to remember the early autos.
They were far worse that the current DSGs

I'm glad I'm not because the BTR 4 speed has got to be one of the worst trans I've ever had the displeasure of driving, it takes the edge off the I6 something chronic.

4Vman
31st January 2015, 10:54 AM
I'm glad I'm not because the BTR 4 speed has got to be one of the worst trans I've ever had the displeasure of driving, it takes the edge off the I6 something chronic.

You obviously never owned an XD/E with the BW35 then....

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 11:02 AM
the worst i have driven was in the company sv6 , it never new what gear to be in, and would require a committee meeting to creat a memo, to be then sent to the ECU for implantation, by then the moment had past......

and it was creepy when it would change further down the harder you braked.......

Paxton
31st January 2015, 11:06 AM
You obviously never owned an XD/E with the BW35 then....

Or an EA...

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 11:07 AM
You obviously never owned an XD/E with the BW35 then....

you guys must be hard on yer cars, iv had BW35,s ( XT and XD and XE ) and over a 100ks in a BTR 95 , (EA and EF)
and had no problems at all ?.......

4Vman
31st January 2015, 11:08 AM
you guys must be hard on yer cars, iv had BW35,s ( XT and XD and XE ) and over a 100ks in a BTR 95 , (EA and EF)
and had no problems at all ?.......

Mum had hers rebuilt in the XD twice in 100000 k's..

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 11:11 AM
Mum had hers rebuilt in the XD twice in 100000 k's..

my dad did 200+ in a xr with no probs, and again in an xa , again no probs? then bought a mk5 cortina and did 145000ks
on the same clutch before selling it.....

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 11:12 AM
i have to say it amuses me the some will change the engine oil regularly, but never think about the trans....?

Franco Cozzo
31st January 2015, 11:17 AM
Not so much reliability problems but just the way they drive, the BTR 4 speed never knows what gear it wants to be in, especially cruise control on the highways and you come across a decent hill then you end up doing 3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4 up the hill, or in Gisborne, driving down the hill into town, it'll sit in 4th at 50km/h instead of dropping back until you go to accelerate, then it drops back.

They also do this slurry soft gear change and first gear being too damn long.

Same thing with two of my friends BF with the 4sp.

Since I converted my EL to 5sp, its different, 1st gear gets you going alright but it feels like 2/3/4 are way too long, 3.45s are too tall IMO.

Makes me wonder is the 6sp ZF all its cracked up to be or is it just because the 4sp is crap that it makes the 6sp seem like the best thing since sliced bread?

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 11:35 AM
the six speed auto in the f is great, only problem is the hesitation when you are on and off the pedals in twisty bits,
that is a pain, trying to anticipate putting you foot down a split second before you think you need to is unnerving ?
Around town, fine, cant feel the changes, unless you floor it, then it goes down to, first gear, then bang , your gone !!

my EF11 v8 Ghia, beautiful smooth box, not a problem even after 200+ ks

Paxton
31st January 2015, 11:52 AM
Not so much reliability problems but just the way they drive, the BTR 4 speed never knows what gear it wants to be in, especially cruise control on the highways and you come across a decent hill then you end up doing 3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4/3/4 up the hill, or in Gisborne, driving down the hill into town, it'll sit in 4th at 50km/h instead of dropping back until you go to accelerate, then it drops back.

They also do this slurry soft gear change and first gear being too damn long.

Same thing with two of my friends BF with the 4sp.

Since I converted my EL to 5sp, its different, 1st gear gets you going alright but it feels like 2/3/4 are way too long, 3.45s are too tall IMO.

Makes me wonder is the 6sp ZF all its cracked up to be or is it just because the 4sp is crap that it makes the 6sp seem like the best thing since sliced bread?


Leave it in Normal (formerly Power) mode. Economy mode was a pain in my EF. I actually found that I could get better fuel economy in Normal mode as well as the engine wasn't labouring as much.

4Vman
31st January 2015, 11:53 AM
Leave it in Normal (formerly Power) mode. Economy mode was a pain in my EF. I actually found that I could get better fuel economy in Normal mode as well as the engine wasn't labouring as much.

Had same experience in my EF, power mode was easier on the trans and more economical day to day.

Bluestuff1
31st January 2015, 02:19 PM
i got just under 29 mpg in my ef11 v8
not bad i thought, considering it liked 120k better than 100k ...?

prydey
31st January 2015, 03:25 PM
i think i must agree here, 4 pots just don't seem to have enough torque to get autos to move along at any hast.....
economy and drivability also seem to loose out with auto on small motors...?


IMO if you've got a 4 banger you need a manual trans, autos and 4 bangers don't mix.

obviously you guys haven't driven an ecoboost falcon! whilst your comments may have some merit in some (maybe most) cases, its a fairly broad statement and there are plenty that cope very well with an auto, esp if forced induction or diesel or both!

Falc'man
1st February 2015, 09:00 PM
One of if not the most competitive market segment.

Not a great start.. There are question marks over Mondeo's weight too, Titanium nearly 1800 kgs, for a largish mid sized car that's pushing it, I thought FWD was supposed to reduce weight?

0-100 in 8.5 seconds? ouch.

The savings grace is none of its competitors are much better performance wise, its not a segment that will sell on performance numbers....

Price and appointments will be critical (except if you're Toyota).
It is not uncommon to find the weights of vehicles vary from one trim level to another. There's a big difference if you get the weight of the lightest FWD Mondeo Ambiente diesel to the Titanium with AWD. In the past options lists were relatively minimal compared to what is featured in cars today. The Titanium has additional features over the base model in spades, so that when you add it up along with the AWD system, there's a quite a difference in mass.

The other thing is the way they measure their cars in Europe is not like is done here. Their "kerb mass" includes 75kg for a driver and 90% full tank of fuel. Subtract those from your 1800 and you're getting closer to what it weighs in our language.

Have a look at the acceleration times of the cars in this test. Do you really think the Mondeo, with "so much more mass" and less or same power as the other two, would be as fast or faster than both in most of the given tests? It's either around the same weight as the others, meaning they're all overweight, or the Mondeo's Turbo Diesel has a hidden nos feature.

Also the 8.5 seconds to 100, do you realise this is a diesel? You want slow, look at a 3.0 sidi Commodore with it's 190kW petrol V6, it can't get below 8.0. Makes the 3.6 owners feel like they have something fast.

The point of all this is there's no need in highlighting negatives when they really aren't there, because all you're doing is worsening the perceptions of people for this product using unfounded and incorrect statements.

4Vman
2nd February 2015, 06:23 AM
The Titanium has additional features over the base model in spades, so that when you add it up along with the AWD system, there's a quite a difference in mass.


AWD, REALLY???


Come on Youssef, read what i have said properly before rushing to jump to conclusions, make assumptions, misinterpretations or simply refute everything i say, which has become an obsession of yours of late.....

Ive acknowledged that performance isn't a prerequisite in the segment these cars occupy and i've also acknowledged Mondeo isn't out of step with its competition.

If acknowledging a neutral position is a negative for you so be it, i cant help you.

Ive also explained why it will be a bit of a shock for many people to adjust to these kinds of times given what we've enjoyed here in the past.

In light of many people hoping that Mondeo offers something over its competitors in this area (again, given what we're used to) i can't see the issue exploring it.

What the article does say is they're disappointed in the product (their words not mine).

On perception issues didn't you and Rob say in another thread they don't exist?

By continually trying to paint me as being negative you Tony and Rob are inadvertently coming across and blinkered Fanboi's... "fingers in ears stuff"...

I think we can all be a bit more open minded and mature than that...



So what positives did you take from the article we're discussing?

Falc'man
2nd February 2015, 08:10 AM
Hilarious.

The fact is you've brought up points not worth mentioning, points that are also false. If I keep correcting you it's probably because you keep stuffing up. There is no need for you to be paranoid, all you need to do is some research before commenting. For example, you weren't aware of AWD models, so I find it funny that you're questioning me about it as if I'm the one making shit up.

4Vman
2nd February 2015, 08:14 AM
Hilarious.

The fact is you've brought up points not worth mentioning, points that are also false. If I keep correcting you it's probably because you keep stuffing up. There is no need for you to be paranoid, all you need to do is some research before commenting. For example, you weren't aware of AWD models, so I find it funny that you're questioning me about it as if I'm the one making shit up.

So there is an AWD Mondeo???


Excellent!!!

I genuinely had no idea one existed.

So again, what positives did you take from the article?

Falc'man
2nd February 2015, 11:01 AM
So again, what positives did you take from the article?

What's the point of asking me when the articles are there for you to find out for yourself?

Franco Cozzo
2nd February 2015, 11:04 AM
So what positives did you take from the article we're discussing?

HIV

4Vman
2nd February 2015, 11:30 AM
What's the point of asking me when the articles are there for you to find out for yourself?

You made the effort to try to discredit my opinion but offer nothing?

Point proven.

Maybe post up some other reviews and comparisons involving Mondeo and let's explore them, or are we only restricting posts now to weighted comments and results in our favor...?

Falc'man
2nd February 2015, 11:35 AM
You made the effort to try to discredit my opinion but offer nothing?

Point proven.
Discrediting your flawed opinion counts as a positive.

Falc'man
2nd February 2015, 12:04 PM
Maybe post up some other reviews and comparisons involving Mondeo and let's explore them, or are we only restricting posts now to weighted comments and results in our favor...?"Weighted comments"? To me that means comments that are fair and are not baseless.
How are we being restrictive when the Mondeo lost this comparison? Yes, go find other comparisons if you wish.

The point remains there are positives in the article. It's a smooth ride with good handling, it has good, practical space, it has many engine options, and is a good looking car. Overall the other cars are deemed better by this one scribe, and it's probably fair to say those other two cars are pretty good for them to beat the Mondeo, for when it was released the Mondeo was lauded as a brilliant car. If you're fixated on absoluteness then nothing is ever good enough because there's always progression.